PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Proglin on August 05, 2006, 12:44:32 am
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Dear people of Yliakum, GM's and devs,
After having arranged over 12 tournaments, time for me to stop has come. It all began so great! The first ever Masters of Magic! the citizens loved it, the GM's loved it, and I loved it. Great names, like Janner, Satayne, Zog, Zorbels, Mysst, Ogu, Javeroal... they were all there for the very first tournament hosted by Proglin's entertainment. The business grew, and after a while I even set up an entire crew. Narita, Dylia, Setill, Zabrey, Illori, Ogu, Javeroal and especially... Gag. They all helped me out so many times and i can never thank them enough.
At the first tournament, the GM's were so supportive! they transported the fallen warriors back to the arena, and helped me out as good as they could. Later on, they even lifted the winners untop of the great statues in the arena! But... Alas. Some one who has never laid eyes upon a tournament, decided they were not allowed to help me. My tournaments were called OOC, Powerleveling Propaganda, a cheap way of making trias and whatnot. I laid low fo a while, all the bad comments my tournaments got, kinda got to me. I put so many houers and houers in them, just to improve the community. I became harder and harder to organise the tournaments. GM's no longer were allowed to help me, although there were some that wanted to. and in the end, Ojaveda got placed far far away, making it very unattractive for the Enkidukai to join in.
Although many things have screwed up my tournaments in the end, there are still only good good memories. All tournaments were great to host, and the players were all so friendly! My Bookie became a succes! the healers did their job well, the awards were always great and the people that sponsored me, or supported me never let me down. And Ozbi, Maelgwyn, Xillix, Ogu, Javeroal, Dowanger, and all the other warriors will always be "my proud warriors" as I liked to call them in my vanity.
Ofcourse I'm not leaving you all like this! I'll host one more tournament. an axe tournament. It will be on a saturday, that much is sure already. but the exact date and time is still unknown. I ask you all, for old times sake, to be there, and to celebrate and cry with me. cause after all... even OOC-ly this business became very dear to me, and I would like all my friends, warriors, crew members, spectators and EVERYONE else to be there \\o//
Dear people.... Thanks.
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I'll try to make it :)
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I'll have to get Mitaki out for this one, just for the occasion. I need my older character there, instead of all these test characters like Blare.
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all i can say is im sorry that this has to come to an end, the tournaments have been great fun to watch and to help with [and although ive never competed, im sure thats fun too]. i really hope this wont be the last ever tournament you organise proglin.
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Baston rip off a tear
Even if I weren't here from the very beginning, I always enjoyed your tournaments as warrior and as spectator.
You did a very great job, and hey don't mind peoples who said the tournaments were OOC.. those almost said that playing with 3D graphic is OOC.. Moving is OOC, breathing is OOC... *smiles*
I will be here for your last tournament, and hope you will come with something else soon.
I think everybody will agree with me and ask "Some one who has never laid eyes upon a tournament" to put their great IC pride and let the GM who wants help Proglin to make that last tournament one of the very best !
Proglin you are great my friend, and you did a f***ing great job with your tournaments (again ;)) *cheers*
Baston turn his back and go mumbling "ooc my *** since when a world full of warriors will not have that kind of event"
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I hope to come as a spectator. please PM me the time when you have one.
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i havent been around for one of these but im here for this one im sad to see it end but ill be there prog :'(
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So even in a RP world we cant have a violent sport, what on earth is going on it is medieval times people fight people die what is so strange or weird about that ?? come on wake up it even says in WHAT IS PLANESHIFT?
The objective of the PlaneShift is to create a virtual fantasy world in which a player can start as a peasant in search of fame and become a hero. First of all PlaneShift is a Role Playing Game. Be sure to read our Roleplay guidelines or you will not be able to play this game. We will focus our efforts in the reproduction of a real world with politics, economy, many non-player-characters controlled by the server that will bring to life our world even without players connected!
Or does this mean absolutely nothing ?
A very disappointed Janner.
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Yeah really. If starting out with nothing and working your way up to organising tournaments and even making a lucrative business out of it is not IC RP, I don't know what is. Please let us all know when you have a solid date for the next tournament.
I don't see why the devs and GMs have a problem with this. People make money organising events everyday in real life.
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*looks at the door....looks at what the game is becoming.....looks at the door again....*
She was right. The downward spiral continues. In making the game, they are destroying the community.
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Say it ain't so Proglin . . .
anyone opposed to these tournaments I say for shame!
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I certainally don't have a problem with events like these, they are well thought out and fun... and I don't see how making the game is destroying the community. What a GM can and can't do has nothing to do with game development, or with 95% of the devs, so please don't make inane comments like that. It's only the rules that GM have to follow which have changed.
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I say Proglin should continue these competitions... They are the best RP events ever to be seen in PS, in my opinion, and any who oppose I shall destroy.... Well... Maybe not destroy, but I will flame them very badly!!!
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We are all sure of that Xordan.. Nevertheless, those rules killed Proglin's tournament. Wich was, in my humble opinion of stupid player, a great event.. and something really great for the game.
* Like UTM, Baston looks at the door with a sentence in mind "so long, and thanks for all the fish" *
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I'll be there, try not to make it the weekend of the 13th of april, and i'll be there.
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When there is a bug, you fix it. When there is a feature that does not work as it is suppossed to, you fix it. When there is a problem in the rules....
Tough luck. Deal with it.
If you are saying that Devs have nothing to do with he rules the GMs follow -which I have been told before, there is something seriously wrong with the system. Especially since some of the GMs -are- Devs. Explain that.
Rules are a part of game development. They are meant to evolve with the needs of the community, not against them.
Inane: silly and pointless --synonyms-- asinine: devoid of intelligence
You, sir, can go to the religious underworld/afterlife of your choosing.
I apologize, Sir Proglin. Myself and all of my characters hold you in the highest respect. I think the comments in this thread by the powers-that-be should not have been to single out my comment, but to say, "We are sorry. We will see what we can do to support your roleplaying, as that is the point of this game." Too bad, huh?
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*sigh* Under the moon... even though I'm not 100%, more like 90%, sure who said that first comment. I can kind of see why you say it.... everybody seems to be getting a little roudy as of late.
Most of the people are the people who have been playing for ever... all they've done and stuff are coming out on threads and then at the end saying Good Bye... it's all very odd...
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Right there with ya Proglin! I have been in on conversations with GM's where we have batted around ideas on how to PROMOTE RP in this game, which was great, but it seems to me that whenever players take the initiative to create events to help out in the only real way that we can, the rules are changed, or interpreted in a different way suddenly to squash these events and actually detract from the RP. I've seen it first hand, and heard the opinions of others.
Talad has gone out of his way to say it is a role-playing game first, yet in another thread he advises to ignore people who aren't RP'ing, where to my mind, it would be better to educate them and bring them into the fold so to speak. The community is becoming divided along RP/PL lines and it seems to me that the dev team and GM's might be too. Exactly where is this game going?
There still are hardly any GM's online to hold their events, even though it has been stated that this summer would be better. With nothing to do but hack & slash, some players have taken it upon themselves to create events for all to participate and enjoy (in-character, mind you). While some may be utter OOC chaos, many are completely IC and, generally those participating have acted as quasi-GM's to "police" the OOC behaviour. However, even these events (from what I've read in this thread) are deemed OOC and while I don't think anyone has said "You can't do that anymore", they sure haven't made it any easier for us to do so.
I would like an answer....should we players continue to bang our heads against the wall and try to keep holding our own events, or shall we all just become a bunch of PL'ers.
My apologies for taking your thread a tad off-topic Proglin. I for one shall be proud to participate in your last tournament....let's make this one to tell our grandkids about!
Bod
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Right on with ya there Bod!
(even though i won't be participating, i will certainly come, as long as its not the last two weeks of august!)
I will always support you here Proggy. What you do is great, and its unfortunate about what has happened.
Oh btw..what does PL mean?
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I am the only GM who is also a dev. There is no other at the moment. All of us, all GMs were unhappy with the rules set out for us when it comes to helping player events. However, many of us were new and just made GMs and it was hard to challenge rules you were just introduced to. Now the time is more appropriate.
To folks who have been disappointed with no GM events this summer, I'm sorry. It all comes back to us being volunteers and often needing to juggle many different tasks at once, plus dealing with life.
I've always enjoyed your tournaments, Proglin, and have had a lot of fun cheering with the audience. We're going to try seeing what we can do about player events (http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8936/smilexb5.gif)
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Karyuu, I would like to know what dev told the GMs not to help with player events.
I support these tournaments 1000% and have even thought about adding support directly into the game for tournaments, including bracketing windows, entrance fees and wagering. It is greatly disappointing to hear it said that wanting to excel in tournaments "isn't RP". Good god people. Snap out of it. That's like saying "it isn't RP" for you to eat the little dots in Pac-Man.
Proglin, you have my full support. If anyone gives you grief, please refer them to me.
- Vengeance
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I think that would be a good idea Vengeance.. Tournaments would be a nice addition as long as they didnt take over .
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I'm confused as to why this is even an issue...I thought that was the purpose of a GM. Punishing people and running events should have an equal amount of GM activity...but I guess one is just easier than the other.
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Running events takes a lot of time and a group of GMs, Kiern. We can't do it spontaneously (not with our restrictions).
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Running events takes a lot of time and a group of GMs, Kiern. We can't do it spontaneously (not with our restrictions).
I don't know anything about your restrictions and therefore I'm not bashing what you are each individually doing, I'm just saying I thought that's what all of you were supposed to be doing (what the title implies).
If you're basically just going to be a police force, well then...that's different than GM, no?
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:-\ Proglin to see you go .... it is a great loss to this community. You have provided so much fun and entertainment.Your tournaments I look forward too and I appreciated them even more as they began to slow down and not happen. You have lived up to your name and did exactly what this game was intented for. You made background, then added life to your character and roleplayed that character well. You did the quests, held tournaments, had a wedding event, and joined in on many parties and good times with the people of Yliakum. I will miss you greatly, perhaps one day you will come back .......
If this Axe tournament is to be your last then I will be there, you can count on it. Thank you for what you have done in this community, and thank you for your inspiration.
-Zorbels-
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I would seriously like to know who has been calling these tournaments OOC, though. We understand that GM participation has been limited (and hopefully not for long!) and this affected the events, but people bringing them down, purposefully, that doesn't make any sense.
In addition: Moon, Talad is the guy who handles GM rules. So no, 95% of the devs have nothing to do with them as Xordan originally said. Please don't go around waving blaming fingers at the development team when the great majority of them don't handle GMs, don't interact with GMs, and don't do GM work. They are separate teams. The system isn't perfect, but hopefully it will improve as will the game itself.
I understand the frustrations people feel - I often share them. But why is it that I so rarely hear complaints until a bandwagon is rolled around and everyone jumps onto it?
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I would love to attend the saturday event, and i hope it isn't the last.
These tournaments seem like the one thing that a player can look forward to after a hard day in th gold mines.
Some entertainment, fun, and a lil Gm interaction.
Thank you for all your effort, and nothing i or anyone else can say, can re pay you for the hours you put into this.
*bows head in honor of Sir Proglin's efforts.
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I am sorry.
Then my comments were missaimed.
But if no one has heard my voice on these matters before...
it is because they have not been listening.
Or did not care to hear.
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By Karyuu.
I understand the frustrations people feel - I often share them. But why is it that I so rarely hear complaints until a bandwagon is rolled around and everyone jumps onto it?
hum don't see it the same at all I am expressing my disbelief at what is going on, also i read most of the other posts as the same.
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i haven't attended to one single of your tournaments proglin as my character doesn't like to see blood spilled for entertainment, but if it's the last... well somene might have to drag him there or i could come in disguise.
Even though i weren't there to participate or spectate i hear from all the other players that it's great and thank you for helping them (if you can say that ::))
you have my full support ooc'ly and 75% ic'ly :P
-Peacer
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Haven't really been around for any of your tournaments, but I'm sad to see them go as they're something I'd like to participate in. Can hardly see how they're OOC. I am a bit confused though, what rules prevent you from holding them?
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i may have only been in the last turney and this one but damn i had fun it was good to well erm yeah ok i was first out in the sword turney but it was still a fun event proglin dont run of i mean your the only real turnament i have seen in ps it would be a shame to turn your back on it cause of rules. if all else fails bend the rules to your own ends 9well as much as you can :P) try getting some support from a few of the devs surely noone can touch yah after that ? vengance has said he will give you suport. And if you need a hand just ask ill help yah.
Alliva
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All you guys, thank you for your support and understanding. I had a great deal of fun arranging events for you all.
@ Karyuu: Dear Karyuu, thatnk you to for your support. Just one side-note... The GM team can easely arrange more events. even spontanious ones. Restrictions are easely made, and the people can easely be arranged. If I can, you can. Theres hundreds of people that can help you out. They are called, the players. Loads of these people will be happy to help you out with running an event. Give them a role in your events. I know they can, cause it was players that made my tournaments, not me. I just created the posabillity.
@ Talad: Ah! So YOU are responsible for the GM rules! Think harder and faster mate! Cause you're doing it wrong. You cose doors that should remain open.
@ Zorbels: Sweety! I'm not leaving you for ever ever! I couldn't! How could I live without my daily dose of Z? I will be less active, that's for sure. Maybe one day even create another character. and maybe... just maybe.... I'll start creating events that go arround the rules.
@ all of Yliakum: I love ya all!
@ under the moon: How's about a beer in the tavern some day soon ey? :D
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It is a shame to see you stop organizing tournaments, Proglin. It's also a shame that you will be less active :'(
There is one cause of this situation:
miscommunication
I've said it before; It seems no one actually knows what they are doing.
Some examples
a GM applying rules not supported by the GM team
GM's who say organizing events is hard and it takes a whole team to do it
GM's who think they can make rules on how to roleplay
People who think there are enough GM's
GM's who think supporting a player-run event is "out of character"
All the above are things I see in this topic and other topics, but are just so wrong.
GM's should also realize it is part of their duty to keep the game fun, not to be a pain in the ass.
If their are dozens of events/roleplay, which "do not apply to the rules", then maybe those rules are wrong...
GM rules are stupid anyway, common sense would need to be enough to control a max of 150 people.
Anyway: on topic again.
We won't forget your tournaments, Proglin! \\o//
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Master Proglin,
Don't let it end. You are an inspiration to the PS world. You constantly think up new and interesting events. I have been an admirer of your skills for many moons. All of your events have been created to be well within the boundaries of roleplay - I have even seen you use bracketed speech to correct OOC newbs attempting to get them to understand rp.
I have said many times, this is OUR world - GM's are only for enforcing some set of rules (unseen rules it appears at times) and DEV's give us new tools and places to work within. It is the players that bring Yliakum to life. A GM or DEV that interferes with our lives has missed the point of their job and function. It is my opinion that unless some player is breaking theses rules, we should never, NEVER see a GM.
So we should not expect them to interfere, but we should also not expect their help in the events.
From Karyuu's posts it is clear there aren't enough GM's to sponsor events. And you know exactly how much work it is to pull off a tournament. They simply don't have the time to do it correctly. We need you and other people like you - Bodacher, Xillix, Anfa, Sov, Easton, Illori... There are many others, but I think the point is made.
And Karyuu, you asked why things aren't brought up sooner? Why don't we hear about problems until their is a bandwagon for everyone to jump on?
Why? Because there is a rule that says you can't publically criticise GM's or their rulings. Do it in PM's. Which are easy to ignore. Delete, delete, delete...
Look, a perfect example. It took a public display of disapproval for the Hydlaa Auction to be resumed. Personally I think this is exactly the place to bring these issues.
In the past I have been helped by several GM's and DEV's. And I thank you from the bottom of my heart. This last release, with all the new art! Beautiful! Karyuu I assume you did the armor skins? Extremely beautiful! (The chainmail isn't really chainmail though - as illustrated, it is more partial plate which has a much lower armor class than chainmail.) Many of you have helped me for hour on end build a client for my linux box. Xordan and DaveG are the best. And I have nothing but respect for Talad and Jorrit, who have also both helped me. Please don't take offense to this next statement:
I call for the end of the invisible dictatorship!
Please, let us live and thrive.
Araye Bayebes
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I understand the frustrations people feel - I often share them. But why is it that I so rarely hear complaints until a bandwagon is rolled around and everyone jumps onto it?
Unfortantly Karyuu, Proglin has brought this issue up on the forums many times. The Auction mess was one time recently that I can think of. It seems that his events get more grief then they are worth to him, though I am not pointing any fingers just repeating what proglin has said in different words.
@Proglin: I am glad you are not going forever ever. *Huges* This would sadden me a great deal. Instead of tournaments I guess I could settle for a tavern setting and a milk, with proglin on the table telling his stories. But only if we play good mage, bad mage again! That was super fun! ;)
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Janner: I understand, and I'm sorry if my "bandwagon" statement was out-of-place or insulting.
Zorbels: The auction fiasco is the only thing you mentioned. It doesn't make it "many times" automatically.. :> But I don't know *shrug!*
Proglin, if the rules are changed/adjusted, will you keep your role as Entertainer? If we make the right modifications and you see the fixes, will it be enough to stick around and continue your awesome work?
Certainly hope so, but I'd like to know if we even have a chance of seeing more of your tournaments :}
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Zorbels: The auction fiasco is the only thing you mentioned. It doesn't make it "many times" automatically.. :> But I don't know *shrug!*
I know, I just couldn't think of the other threads names for me to meantion. Plus I really don't want to start a debate, as I see two sides of this story and feel for both sides, it is not really anyones fault but more like the fault of an unstable system. When I find the threads I will organize them and sent them to you in a pm. And thank you for that post above. It gives me hope, I just hope Proglin will accept.
/me reads Karyuu's post and looks at proglin with hopeful eyes
If this happens Proglin know I will help in anyway possible to get these tournaments up and running again.
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Indeed Proglin, as will I!
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There's always a chance I'll be back in business. Just don't count on it, cause for now. I'm fed up. Still.. reading all the replies give me hope.
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Well I am hosting that race on the 13th just to add something else to the game as we need events like tournaments, races, auctions, festivals all these things give life to the game and are created by the players.
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Hi,
I admit I don't know much about GM things or the tournaments, but judging from what I've read here, they're the kind of activity we should support and encourage.
I may not be able to make it there personally, but since it'll be an axe tournament...
(http://users.tkk.fi/~vrantapu/PlaneShift/Screenshots/hw_axe04.png)
An axe mod for those longing for a little variation. Changes doubleaxe01a into a rather large cleaver. Only affects the graphics on your client.
To apply:
- take backup of your existing doubleaxe01a.spr and doubleaxe01a_icon.dds. (in planeshift/art/things/weapons.zip)
- download zip: http://users.tkk.fi/~vrantapu/PlaneShift/p_axe_mod.zip
- unzip the package and copy the 3 files into your planeshift/art/things/weapons.zip
- run PS normally and enter the tournament wielding a double axe
It's a small gift compared to the work Proglin has done for PS community. :)
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I've always enjoyed your tournaments, Proglin, and have had a lot of fun cheering with the audience. We're going to try seeing what we can do about player events (http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8936/smilexb5.gif)
I would seriously like to know who has been calling these tournaments OOC, though. We understand that GM participation has been limited (and hopefully not for long!) and this affected the events, but people bringing them down, purposefully, that doesn't make any sense.
Karyuu, I would like to know what dev told the GMs not to help with player events.
I support these tournaments 1000% and have even thought about adding support directly into the game for tournaments, including bracketing windows, entrance fees and wagering. It is greatly disappointing to hear it said that wanting to excel in tournaments "isn't RP". Good god people. Snap out of it. That's like saying "it isn't RP" for you to eat the little dots in Pac-Man.
Proglin, you have my full support. If anyone gives you grief, please refer them to me.
- Vengeance
@Karyuu and Vengeance: I don't think anyone can dispute the amount of work and dedication that both of you (as well as several others from the GM and dev teams) have put into PS and continue to every day. Sometimes I can barely keep up with reading the forum, let alone moderate and/or administer it. :D Add to that development work and GM work and still try to have something resembling a real life also. :o I, for one, can fully understand how little time is left over for firstly planning a GM-run event, and secondly, running that event. Also, your kind supportive words restore my faith in both teams as well.
@Any GM who might have permission and a few hours of time: As players, we can not demand or expect any assistance for player-created, 'non-official' events. This is a fact that I, myself, can accept. But, on Proglin's behalf, I will humbly ask if it is possible. A little bit of teleporting assistance can go a long way in making these tournaments much more successful and enjoyable. The problem as I see it is two-fold:
1. The often discussed increased distance between Hydlaa (the arena, specifically) and Ojaveda. During normal day-to-day gameplay, I completely agree that the distance is nothing more than a minor inconvenience at worse. I have no problems making the trip myself. Add to this the time needed to travel thru the DR as well and it can be a deterrent for those that may want to participate in the tournament. By the time a defeated warrior makes it back to the arena, they could easily miss several duels that they could have enjoyed watching.
2. Defeat by bug. If a competitor gets a ticket to the DR thru an OOC means like a bug and a rematch is needed, the tournament might basically be on hold while waiting for them to make it back.
Yes, it can be argued that someone could yield before they are defeated. But, this still won't help in the second case listed above.
@Proglin: Even if I have to run from the top of the Bronze Doors fortress to Ojaveda between each match, I would still be there. Your hard work and planning is deeply appreciated. :)
@Everyone: Lately, it has been disheartening to see a lot of us versus them mentality. Maybe it is time for everyone to take a deep breath and put themselves in the someone elses shoes and try to see things from a different point of view. A little thankfulness and kindness from everyone can go a long way. GM, dev, or player, we are all human and equal in that respect. It is sometimes easy to loose sight of the fact that this should be fun for everyone (players, GM's and devs).
As players, we should be saying to the GM's and devs 'Thank you. We appreciate all of your work and time.'
This can also be a two-way street. Maybe a simple 'Thank you for working to create a gift for the community when we simply do not have enough hours in the day to do so' from a GM or dev to a player who has spent many, many hours planning it (which you can certainly understand, I am sure). We are all doing what we can with the tools we have. We just have slightly different tool sets. ;D
If a player can have fun and enjoy game features and events created by GM's and devs, can it also work the other way. Are GM's allowed to have fun and lend a helping hand if they have the time and they want to? Are they allowed to say to a player 'Hey. You have done something good to add life to PS and create fun. Well done.'?
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*slaps himself with a be constructive stick*
As many of you know, when confronting a problem ingame I often turn to real life for the solution. Why? Because real life has been around for a lot longer, and a few more of the kinks have been worked out.
Problem: trips to the Deathrealm and faraway spawnpoints make it difficult for Tourneys to go on without GM help. Many roleplaying folks do not wish to participate for this very reason. They do like to watch, but do not enjoy the pointless trip through the DR. I know I do not.
RL solution: How many tournaments, -real tournaments- do you know of that required one of the combatants to die? Rome, yes, sometimes, but that was a most brutal society. I do not see PS as having that mentality. The tourneys are meant to be a distraction for fun. The point being, do not make dueling fatal. There is a simple solution. Create an auto yield option for dueling. If a player is 'killed', they see the death animation and fall to the ground. The other player is the victor and gets the vaunted duel points. What happens to the other player? For starters, they do not get a free trip to the DR. Let them lay on the ground for a minute or two, then have their health begin to return. They then can get up and watch the next round, or even participate if the rules of the tourney call for it.
This would also be well do for normal roleplaying. The streets are a bloodbath now. Nearly half of the arguments end in someone in a puddle of their own fluids. The guards do nothing. Are we that barbaric? The settings and roleplay do not match up with game mechanics. This causes great confusion for all types of players. In real life, rarely do fights end in death. If it does, the survivor is often in a great deal of trouble. There is none of that here.
In effect, I advise some recoding to make dueling less -or not at all- fatal. If a duel calls for someone to die, that can always be RPed with /die. As for fights with creatures? No. If you take on a mob, you are facing something that wants you dead. The game works perfectly in that aspect. Believe me, I know. ;)
Practical terms: Challenge (or maybe Non Fatal Challenge, as that would make it clear what type of fight you are looking for) --> life is taken to 0 OR 1 --> auto yield defeat --> death animation --> short time in 'dead' pose --> life starts returning --> standing pose and continue playing.
@ Proglin: You sir, have a deal. I just have to create a character that can drink you under the table first. >:D
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@ Cherppow:
What a great mod, I love it! :woot:
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@ Proglin: You sir, have a deal. I just have to create a character that can drink you under the table first. >:D
TEEHEE! Good luck! :devil:
Other then that... the solution you had, in creating non fatal duelling is awsome! Then again... it might give new problems... like more and more people duelling everywhere, cause you're not dying from it anyway. If it's done.. there have tobe two different options, and a system of where to use these two different outcomes of a duel.
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We have long wanted to make a yield feature that would prevent death in duels, but for now it is the player's choice whether to die or not. What we're really lacking is a yield animation, where the character gets on his knees and begs the opponent to stop (which he auto-would, of course)...
- Vengeance
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Talk about humiliation. I wouldn't wanna get on me knees and beg, I'd rather die...well my character would, I myself would beg. xP
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Think realistically. If you've seen death, seen your freinds die by your side, would you be that willing to die? In this case it sounds like the willingness to die is more of a sign of pride than bravery. Of course this would be perfectly fine if your character is a pompus. Of course, it appears death is treated much differently in Yliakum (Death Realm or no Death Realm, it says in the player guide that corpses are simply thrown away :o )
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Exactly. It shouldn't be an auto-command for your character to humiliate himself, he should be able to choose once his health gets low (or about to die) to either yield, or accept death.
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From what you said the tournaments sound like they were a lot of fun. Sorry to hear it has to come to an end :(
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Proglin, when I entered this game, a silly noob about a half year ago, I remember walking around the Hydlaa Square hearing excitement in the other characters who would talk about an upcoming tournament. It added to the hustle and bustle in the square making everyone feel a part of something; even those who never went to your tournament, those who were just in earshot of that electricity were happy to hear it making the world more real.
I did go however. I made sure I was there to observe and it was amazing for a noob to see such an event for the first time. So many characters, all those people in the room cheering on the combatants and the Rp conversation between folks that would errupt as I walked around listening in and, yes, the non-RP's enjoying themselves as well. What an experience for a noob. I went to others after that first one, and auctions too...they all were just as exciting and after every one I would shut my computer with a satisfied smile. I thank you for making my Planeshift experience so special.
:flowers:
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Proglin, I hope that you will not give up just yet.
Your creativity, and talent for organizing events, have brought much joy to many.
As for why you feel this way...
I certainally don't have a problem with events like these, they are well thought out and fun... and I don't see how making the game is destroying the community. What a GM can and can't do has nothing to do with game development, or with 95% of the devs, so please don't make inane comments like that. It's only the rules that GM have to follow which have changed.
Players can only guess what you designed.
But we know better than anyone, what you actually built.
So when the leading players of PS say that rules are harming, or even destroying the community, who are you to say that they are wrong?
All of us, all GMs were unhappy with the rules set out for us when it comes to helping player events. However, many of us were new and just made GMs and it was hard to challenge rules you were just introduced to.(http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8936/smilexb5.gif)
The first mistake was not publishing the GM rules.
I understand the frustrations people feel - I often share them. But why is it that I so rarely hear complaints until a bandwagon is rolled around and everyone jumps onto it?
To be blunt, most of them have been flame-locked or deleted, before a bandwagon could form.
Talad is the guy who handles GM rules....
We don't care who made the mistakes we find, we just want them fixed, and are doing our best to help.
Karyuu, I would like to know what dev told the GMs not to help with player events.
I support these tournaments 1000% and have even thought about adding support directly into the game for tournaments, including bracketing windows, entrance fees and wagering. It is greatly disappointing to hear it said that wanting to excel in tournaments "isn't RP". Good god people. Snap out of it. That's like saying "it isn't RP" for you to eat the little dots in Pac-Man.
Proglin, you have my full support. If anyone gives you grief, please refer them to me.
- Vengeance
For your voice of reason, and for your continuing respect and support for the players, you have my heartfelt thanks.
~Verrliit~
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So when the leading players of PS say that rules are harming, or even destroying the community, who are you to say that they are wrong?
Leading players? That's quite elitist. I try and see all players opinions without favouritism. I don't like people who rate their opinions as worth more than others because they've got more ingame hours. I don't remember saying that people are wrong about this issue anyway, if you'd read my reply properly. I'm totally in support of events like these. Saying that developing the game is destroying the community however is crap as it has nothing to do with rules made for GMs.
We don't care who made the mistakes we find, we just want them fixed, and are doing our best to help.
Right, and we're working on it.
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Verrliit, what the heck is your problem?
So when the leading players of PS say that rules are harming, or even destroying the community, who are you to say that they are wrong?
What dev in this thread has disagreed that the rules should be changed? Please stop putting words in our mouths and looking for every little chance to poke at us with your jabbing fingers.
To be blunt, most of them have been flame-locked or deleted, before a bandwagon could form.
What the taco are you talking about? Please name me one thread that has been flame-locked or deleted about the player-events rule.
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Bah, it's usually best to ignore those kinds of posts. On most sites they call those kinds of people trolls: people who post to try and reap the most responses possible, usually by saying something inflammatory. A good course of action is usually to address any real concerns that they have (if any) and then just move on. If they are a persistent troll, they probably already know better, and choose not to act that way (remember Datruth (a clever name, I admit, but definetly not RP) from only a few days ago?). I do hate it when threads turn into flame wars.
-Myko
PS- I'm waiting for the reply where the troll then quotes several people (sometimes out of context) to "make his point" Or if he (or she!) is really clever, just plain say something to generate a heated response.
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@Verrliit:
Elequent and right to the point, and he said it best, who cares who made the rule, let's just try and fix it for the good of the community.
I know we might not mean much to you guys(devs), but just once would you mind listenting to us?
Not just locking our thread, and then putting the last post.
Then modifying your post.
Then Having a fellow Dev come in , and re post, In a locked thread.
That's just pure forum ettiquette, if you're going to lock a thread, don't be the last to post, and if a thread is locked, don't use your forum privaleges to post in that locked thread.
You may be legally allowed to buy a gun in the U.S, but you can't kill innocent people with it. I think the theme could be, don't abuse your power and if you find a problem, fix it.
Do not quote an entire long post! And moreover, don't go ranting about power abuse when moderators and devs can always have the last word in a thread. --Karyuu[/color]
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I see nothing wrong with how the forum mods handle thier forum.
Edit, any time a thread gets locked, it is locked for a good reason, which is given by the mod posting it in the thread before locking. This to prevent confusion as to why it was locked.
Oh, and Verrliit is a she, not he. ;)
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maybe the flaming should stop and we should get back to topic and talk about memories (well you talk about memories i listen =P) support and how we are looking forward to proglins tournament, it would be sad to see the thread locked because of this..
And who knows, maybe a little nolthrir will hide somewhere and watch the last tournament from the entertainer.
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it would be sad to see the thread locked because of this..
Don't worry, I'll just delete any more offtopic flames. We'll do what we like on these forums and if people don't agree with that then please leave ;) Now back on topic everyone please.
I see no reason for a GM to not help Proglin out a bit in this anyway. I hope it goes smoothly :)
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Hmmm I don't know if this is the place for this but upon reading this thred I had an idea I felt I had to share.
Maybe the GM's shuould be split into two groups
1.GM's as they are now
and
2. A new group called somthing like EM(event masters) who only handle RP related aspects and not bugs and rule enforcement.
EM's could have only the powers they would need to help them run offical RP events and not things like mute or ban :)
I don't know if this could be done without changeing how GM powers are handled or not ::|
anyway just an idea.
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Hmmm I don't know if this is the place for this but upon reading this thred I had an idea I felt I had to share.
Maybe the GM's shuould be split into two groups
1.GM's as they are now
and
2. A new group called somthing like EM(event masters) who only handle RP related aspects and not bugs and rule enforcement.
EM's could have only the powers they would need to help them run offical RP events and not things like mute or ban :)
I don't know if this could be done without changeing how GM powers are handled or not ::|
anyway just an idea.
Seems like a good idea, doesn't really have any flaws.
I think the only problem would be, the gms, wouldn't want to get stripped of their power, and that would be the only obstacle.
If you can pass that, your opinion follows perfect logic.
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Well just start the EM's as anew group then :P
I nominate Proglin to the not yet new group ;D
Also note in my previous post I sead 'keep GM's as they are' so they can run events if they can find the time :flowers:
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Elequent and right to the point, and he said it best, who cares who made the rule, let's just try and fix it for the good of the community.
I know we might not mean much to you guys(devs), but just once would you mind listenting to us?
Not just locking our thread, and then putting the last post.
Ok, Datruth, I don't know whether you have some strange form of multiple personality disorder, but define "we". Same with your use of "our" and "us". They way you're talking there, it sounds like you're just whining about your thread being locked. Really. And I am getting sick of you saying "for the good of the community." First off, you've said that a few too many times, it's getting old, and most of the time, no one knows what you're even talking about! I don't know whether you're trying to be a demagogue and an iconoclast here, but you need to stop.
Might I suggest that instead of using "we" and "us" and "our" (let me tell you, you're not getting people on your side. In fact, it feels like you're alienating everyone to me) just say you agree with $name. Just because someone agrees with something you say does not give you the right to speak for them using "we" and all of those collective pronouns. You speak for one person: yourself. (unless of course you have some secret you wish to tell us ;) )
You make some valid points (not many, and not many original ones) but they're presented in a way that very few people want to listen to you. IF you really do want to see Planeshift change for the better, and you honestly believe what you say in your posts (i.e. you're not here just to be a nuisance/disturbance for you own malicious reasons) then consider showing more respect, not just to the devs, but to everyone (if you can not tell that you have not been respectful or courteous, then I truly have pity for you.) Historically, people tend to listen to someone that they like. And technically, the devs have all of the power. Anything that they give to the public can be taken away very easily. No need to complain. If this was a commercial game, most probably at this stage the company would still be keeping it a secret.
-Myko
PS-Oh, and really, did you have to quote his ENTIRE post? We all have scroll bars you know.
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Guys, a group of "Roleplay Masters", a separate group from the GM team, was made some time ago. However, it was merged with the GM team because some people did not think that two separate groups were a good idea. This is not a new concept, and I don't see it starting up again if Talad already merged the RMs.
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I shuold have known when I had an Idea that it wasn't original X-/
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Here's a problem:
(note: the following is taken from http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23067.0 it has been edited for length and to get to the point)
Q: Who are the Game Masters?
* Uyaem -- GMlvl: 5; timezone: GMT+1
* Bakuun -- timezone: GMT-8
* Chaos -- GMlvl: 4; timezone: GMT-5
* Hadfael -- GMlvl: 4; timezone: GMT+1
* Kerol -- GMlvl: 4; timezone: GMT+1
* Drey -- GMlvl: 3; timezone: BST (for a while)
* Frostmorn
* Noxide -- GMlvl: 2; timezone: GMT
* Syilph -- GMlvl: 2; timezone: GMT+2
* Tarel -- GMlvl: 2; timezone: GMT+1
Q: What can a GM do for me?
* Encourage roleplay and other initiatives players may have, like creation of new guilds, roleplaying certain situations or characters, provide wedding services, etc.
* Create and run dynamic quests and events in the game.
Listed above are ten GMs. Now, this may be slightly outdated, but the point is, i've seen less than a handful of GMs posting here. about 20% if we wanna get technical. In-game i see about 40-50% of these guys, and i have them all on my buddylist. Except for very rare occassions i never ever see more than 2 on at any one time. And even two on at the same time isn't the most common sight. Now, i know, believe me i know, that everyone has their own life. I co-run the SCoY and i know the difficulty in getting 20 people from across the globe to meet at the same time. believe me. But then again, i also know how Proglin, whether he knows it or not has completely changed this game for me. And i had been around for a little more than a year before i met him. In my eyes, Proglin is the definition of the player PS wants. If Proglin is thinking about leaving the game, or discontinuing a certain in-game rp event, then SOMETHING IS WRONG. I don't care what anyone says really. Thats the bottom line. I've grown a guild with Proglin, i've run rp events with him, i've had my own rp with just him and myself, and i've had the greatest of times with him. I try to keep him here myself because i know if the community loses Proglin, there won't be another. He's the only Proglin i know, and the only Proglin i'd accept. He is just a player, and yet he can create these events that (for the most part) unite the community for a few hours. The GMs have powers that we don't have. they have more access. why can't they create an event every once in a while? I love GM sponsored events, i love working with GMs, i love GMs in general. But some of them i have absolutely no respect for. Why? Because they are given an opportunity and instead they spend half of their time in IRC and half in another game. Which essentially has no point.
I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but i am extremely annoyed at some of the happenings as of late, and i feel very very very very helpless. Becoming a GM scares me to death. I feel like i could very well be caught in this apathetic trap that will eventually remove me from the PS community. Its odd, i feel there is more i can do with this community, and for this community, as a player, as opposed to a GM. I love you guys, and some of you make an incredible contribution to this community. Some of you really sacrifice a lot for this community and i thank you a million times over for that. But its the other half that really is the problem. And the loss of Proglin's tournaments is one of the worst things to happen to this community in a while.
@Proglin: You know you're a great friend of mine in every plane and realm of existence. The loss of your tournaments.. well.. sucks. But i know you'll find another area in which to improve the community. Don't give up my friend..
Easton Ghent
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Becoming a GM scares me to death.
I can't Imagine why ANYONE would want the job.
However I can see where someone could enjoy making and running an event, thus my Idea.
Alot of people who would make good "Roleplay Masters" would not be good GM's, also many may not want the responsibility.
I still think it's a good idea and maybe someone can get Talad to change his mind on this.
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The Roleplay masters are part of the GM team now, yes. The problem is that they don't actually do anything.
I asked Talad about that, and he said that's the GM team's problem.
So with suggestions about more GM's focused on roleplaying, you have to be with Uyaem or Kerol.
And did I mention most (all) of the GM's active can't even do events, because they don't have the commands?
They can only punish and bug hunt, handy isn't it? :)
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::| That seems backwords to me they should be able to make events before being able to punish.
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Guys, a group of "Roleplay Masters", a separate group from the GM team, was made some time ago. However, it was merged with the GM team because some people did not think that two separate groups were a good idea. This is not a new concept, and I don't see it starting up again if Talad already merged the RMs.
Ok, I knew there was a such thing at RMs, glad to know I wasn't going crazy.
Anyway, I can't in any way, shape, or form see how having RMs isn't perfectly logical and doesn't make 100% sense (unlike this sentence). They don't do anything, fine, that's on them...but it just doesn't make sense that ALL GM types have to be police. Some people who would be RMs aren't suitable to be GMs and vice versa.
This is just too hard to argue because after thinking about it from every perspective that I can, I just can't see how it could possibly be thought of as a bad thing.
EDIT: removed controversial point...if you read it, don't reply to it.
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And did I mention most (all) of the GM's active can't even do events, because they don't have the commands?
They can only punish and bug hunt, handy isn't it? :)
Kerol, Chaos, Uyaem, and I are active and can do events. Where does the problem come in? Having us all on at the right time. Not only are we in different time zones, we have different job/class schedules. I'm working on some 1-GM events I can run by myself as soon as I'll get back from vacation, but it's difficult to kidnap someone else to help.
GMs are divided based on rank. New GMs won't get high-rank commands as soon as they get in - and that makes sense, no? So not everyone has commands that may help in event-making, but they are most certainly free to participate and help in whatever way they can.
My head is splitting on bringing up the RM issue again. There are some GMs, me included, who would still want to be able to both moderate and run events, and thus would have to be on both teams, and I'm not going to touch this, as it's been more trouble than it's worth..
No one has time for the GM team right now, so we make do as best as we can. We just got another long-wanted member (three cheers for Akaye!) and this will definitely help.
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My head is splitting on bringing up the RM issue again. There are some GMs, me included, who would still want to be able to both moderate and run events, and thus would have to be on both teams, and I'm not going to touch this, as it's been more trouble than it's worth..
No one has time for the GM team right now, so we make do as best as we can. We just got another long-wanted member (three cheers for Akaye!) and this will definitely help.
That's the thing though, I don't think anyone is saying that GMs can't have events or that RMs can't police if need be, it's more about focus. Maybe certain RMs aren't able to punish people, but I don't see why GMs shouldn't be able to do what RMs can.
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Maybe the GM's shuould be split into two groups
1.GM's as they are now
and
2. A new group called somthing like EM(event masters) who only handle RP related aspects and not bugs and rule enforcement.
EM's could have only the powers they would need to help them run offical RP events and not things like mute or ban :)
I don't know if this could be done without changeing how GM powers are handled or not ::|
With this setup you could be just a GM :P
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[...] it's more about focus.
Personally I liked the setup the way it was before, with RMs (well, EMs is better I suppose, since someone threw a hissy fit at the name last time). But I don't know how many current GMs would agree with this, and most importantly I absolutely dread approaching this subject with Talad. He can be very final on what he wants.
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I'm shure if he were presented with a well thought out argument, with most of the bugs worked out on how to do it, he would change his mind
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But I don't know how many current GMs would agree with this, and most importantly I absolutely dread approaching this subject with Talad. He can be very final on what he wants.
I don't see how the GMs should have any say in that...but I guess that's beside the point. If you do happen to bring it up with Talad and he denies it, if you PM me why or something I'd appreciate it. Not that I'm going to do anything with it, this kind of thing just interests me (if you haven't noticed). If I thought I wouldn't have a negative effect on the outcome and in fact I would find myself actually able to talk to him, I'd do it myself.
I'm shure if he were presented with a well thought out argument, with most of the bugs worked out on how to do it, he would change his mind
Heh.
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Kerol, Chaos, Uyaem, and I are active and can do events. Where does the problem come in? Having us all on at the right time. Not only are we in different time zones, we have different job/class schedules. I'm working on some 1-GM events I can run by myself as soon as I'll get back from vacation, but it's difficult to kidnap someone else to help.
Exactly. That's why the team needs more members. I heard 3 GM's are coming up, so I hope they will help.
GMs are divided based on rank. New GMs won't get high-rank commands as soon as they get in - and that makes sense, no? So not everyone has commands that may help in event-making, but they are most certainly free to participate and help in whatever way they can.
The problem is the ranks don't shift that often. Plus it's hard for a GM to prove himself if the only thing he can do is punish people, and because of that most people hate said GM. I see no harm in giving lower rank GM's more commands, how are you going to screw up the game with the /morph command anyway. The "rotten appels" should've been filtered out anyway.
I propose a GM1 period where GM's can be tested for their willingness, activity, teamwork. Afterwards they just get all commands, except maybe for some higher risk ones like /npc (duh).
My head is splitting on bringing up the RM issue again. There are some GMs, me included, who would still want to be able to both moderate and run events, and thus would have to be on both teams, and I'm not going to touch this, as it's been more trouble than it's worth..
It's not about willingness, only the people who actually bother to do events should be on the RM team. If needed that team could change from week to week, depending on how much time people have.
Personally I liked the setup the way it was before, with RMs (well, EMs is better I suppose, since someone threw a hissy fit at the name last time). But I don't know how many current GMs would agree with this, and most importantly I absolutely dread approaching this subject with Talad. He can be very final on what he wants.
I already did that for you.
Bottomline of the conversation:
Uyaem (and Kerol) can change stuff as they see fit.
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I'm shure if he were presented with a well thought out argument, with most of the bugs worked out on how to do it, he would change his mind
Well, you have an opportunity to make that argument and polish it here ;) Help me out.
Uyaem (and Kerol) can change stuff as they see fit.
I'm afraid I don't understand where is this coming from.
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An IRC conversation I had with Talad.
I asked him a couple of times if he could make some changes to the GM team, like more GM's and more GM's with event-commands, all those times he redirected me to Uyaem.
From the conversation I understood that he doesn't bother about GM team changes, and Uyaem should just handle all that.
Uyaem is the leader of the GM team after all.
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you have an opportunity to make that argument and polish it here ;) Help me out.
Well here goes nothing
My idea was to have people whose only purpose was to make events and help with roleplay.
They would'nt need powers like mute or other inforcement tools and giveing them a different name in game would make sure that someone would not come to them with problems like bugs or stalkers
I have been thinking on orginizational models fo what we now call GM's and I have an expantion on my erlier idea.
1. GM's as they are now.
2. Event Masters (or EM's): people interested in makeing and running events and helping players learn to rp.
3. Rule Inforcement Officers (or RIO's): people interested in Inforcing the rules and such (basicly cops).
4. Bug Catchers (or BC's): people interested in finding bugs and confirming bug reports .
so if you had a bug you would go to someone wearing a BC 'hat' or a GM 'hat' but not a RIO or a EM 'hat'
i dont see a problem with one person wearing all four 'hats' at different times but i don't know how GM-ship is handled inturnaly
the way im imagining this is a gm has an alt thats in the EM guild and so on
Edit: this is geting a bit off topic maybe it should have its own thred?
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An IRC conversation I had with Talad.
I asked him a couple of times if he could make some changes to the GM team, like more GM's and more GM's with event-commands, all those times he redirected me to Uyaem.
From the conversation I understood that he doesn't bother about GM team changes, and Uyaem should just handle all that.
Uyaem is the leader of the GM team after all.
I don't understand, what is all this talk about the GMs? If the idea is that they are seperate to the GMs, why should the GMs really have anything to do with/a say in this? It's purely a dev decision as far as I can tell...but then from what I can tell from this board the entire system is screwy as far as telling who has a say in what.
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.but then from what I can tell from this board the entire system is screwy as far as telling who has a say in what.
I agree to that! :P
And there doesn't have to be another GM like team (though it would be handy).
Just some GM's who will get event commands and have the task to focus more on events can work too.
And if a GM is doing an event on his own and needs help (another character needs to be played by someone), he/she could just /deputize a trusted player to help a bit. I think that plan was called the Questmaster plan, though it never got off the ground. I guess there wasn't enough trust X-/
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First of all, I don't understand how Uyaem would have all that decisive power when Talad was so very clear when the team was reformed that control of the GMs rested in the hands of the devs. I have very serious doubts that if Uyaem would want to split the team into EMs and GMs, Talad would just smile and nod. So I have no idea what conversations you had with whom, but this is what I know and have known, and so far no one reliable on the subject (no offense!) has told me anything different. I'll wait for Uyaem's input.
Mardek, we seriously don't need so many separate teams. First of all they are a hassle to manage, and second we don't need a whole team for bug-catching when every other team does and should have that as part of their duties. GMs and EMs are enough without overdoing it.
But what I'm looking for are arguments on why such a "split" or different team would be a good idea. Why the community would want that, how would it benefit folks, etc.
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Hey, I'm not saying any team needs to be split, just that GM's should focus more on events.
As far as I could tell from my conversation with Talad, Uyaem has the choice on that one.
So I have no idea what conversations you had with whom, but this is what I know and have known, and so far no one reliable on the subject (no offense!) has told me anything different.
*sigh* We're not getting anywhere in this way...
:(
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Thom, I don't think you understand: we were told that our focus is meant to be on events for a very long time now. This won't be a change in the slightest. But we still have a problem getting people together, and while I like your suggestion of /deputizing trusted players, what fair method is there to see who is trusted or not without being blamed for favoritism or power abuse?
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And there doesn't have to be another GM like team (though it would be handy).
Just some GM's who will get event commands and have the task to focus more on events can work too.
The whole new group thing is so that someone handling rp ONLY dosn't have to say 'sorry i can't help you with your stalker I can only do event manigment'.
To clearify I was thinking someone might just be in one or two of the groups I described as well.
But what I'm looking for are arguments on why such a "split" or different team would be a good idea. Why the community would want that, how would it benefit folks, etc.
you are corect on the to many teams got caried away there it's just how I think.
as to why EM's as a seperate group:
1. You can have people that just handle events this way and have no enforcement powers.
2. The skills and personality reqs. are different for someone who enforces rules than someone who runs a rp event.
3. You can have different requirements for a seprate group.
4. You can have rules for each group
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Thom, I don't think you understand: we were told that our focus is meant to be on events for a very long time now. This won't be a change in the slightest. But we still have a problem getting people together,
People will need to be threatened then, in taking that mission serious ;)
and while I like your suggestion of /deputizing trusted players, what fair method is there to see who is trusted or not without being blamed for favoritism or power abuse?
I see where this is leading to.
Instead of adding another 20 rules to the GM book, why not follow your heart more, and think with logic?
I don't think if people like Proglin, Gag or Zorbels would be deputized they would use that "power" to wreck the server ;)
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bwhahaha wrecking the server by making the entire of oja rain so much it floods, bwhahahaha. *evil look*
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An IRC conversation I had with Talad.
I asked him a couple of times if he could make some changes to the GM team, like more GM's and more GM's with event-commands, all those times he redirected me to Uyaem.
From the conversation I understood that he doesn't bother about GM team changes, and Uyaem should just handle all that.
Uyaem is the leader of the GM team after all.
First of all, I don't understand how Uyaem would have all that decisive power when Talad was so very clear when the team was reformed that control of the GMs rested in the hands of the devs.
I can confirm it, Karyuu.
Thomphoenix spoke with Talad in IRC.
While they both were speaking, Talad spoke to the Gm-team too.
Talad said, that Uyaem and Kerol are in charge of the GM-team.
Talad also said that Thomphoenix should talk to them,
instead of with Talad, because Talad is very busy and does not interfere/like
to be bothered with GM-stuff.
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while I like your suggestion of /deputizing trusted players, what fair method is there to see who is trusted or not without being blamed for favoritism or power abuse?
Fair is pretty easy.
Anyone who has logged more than a set number of hours, would be fair.
Leaders of guilds, who have kept their guild going for more than a set number of months, would also be fair.
Players who have more than a set number of other players, not all in the same guild, who vouch for them, would be fair as well.
Any of these are good enough, and even if there are ways to exploit them, it won't make a difference.
So I vote we do them all.
Trusted is also easy.
Those who betray their trust will quickly be known, and could easily be removed by more than some set number of players.
As for the GMs being blamed for favoritism or power abuse, this is also quite simple.
Don't involve them in any way.
All of the above can be done as a server function.
~Verrliit~
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No offense, but I find that laughable :)
I'm going to go and laugh now.
I know you'd like to give GM powers to players and eliminate GMs entirely, but you're living in another world, Verrliit. Please think sensibly.
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Anyone who has logged more than a set number of hours, would be fair.
Being logged on for a long period of time doesn't qualifiy you in anything... except needing to get out more in the extreme cases. I would never give someone extra powers just because they've been ingame for a long time. Same with the guild leader one. There are probably a lot of unsuitable (idiots in some cases) people who stay ingame for a long time some of them just grinding skills stats and tria.
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There are individuals who have simply proven themselves in the community, they could be recruited to participate with a GM in an event, of course that person would lose his powers after the event or after a relog, but that's how /deputize works at the moment already.
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I think we might be looking past the actual point here..
I think...
The point is: Proglin is a normal player with normal rights and normal access to everything that all players have access to. He cannot spawn items, he cannot affect npcs, or port people, or anything of the sort. He is normal. He created some incredible events in his relatively short time here. A large majority of normal players have participated or heard of or watched these events and enjoyed them in some way, shape, or form.
Now...
If people who have exceptional access to things like, spawning items, controlling npcs etc.. cannot put together one (1) event by themselves, then i have to say it is a complete and utter failure to the community. (i am aware that not all GMs have all rights) Now, as previously stated, i love the GMs for the most part. I think they are some of the hardest working people in the community, and i can easily appreciate the thought that everyone has their own timezone and schedule etc.. But i just find it hard to believe that not one event has been created by the GM team for a long time. In my personal opinion, more than a few on the GM team could not be GMs and the whole team would be better off. Its like useless weight in my opinion. And the GMs i am talking about are the ones who spend all their time in IRC or on other games, and only come in to PS to check out the new features in the latest update.
I once asked a GM if i could be ported to the DR or anywhere because due to the new update, i was frozen on a map, and couldn't even use /die or anything. The response: "I'm busy" I later found out they were busy playing another game and sitting in IRC. So essentially i find that the good GMs (the one's possibly thinking about making an event) are limited by the bad ones (the ones who don't care and just want to see "Game Master" written above their head.
Suggestion: Weed out the GMs who haven't logged in for x amount of time or who cannot produce evidence of any sort of care for the PS community. Rework the GM rules/permissions. Change something. Obviously something is wrong.
I love this community to death and im tired of seeing quality members leaving, quitting, fading away, or whatever because of a few annoying, rude, and useless people.
Easton Ghent
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Though your points have already been mentioned, spread over these 7 pages (I don't blame you for not reading and memorizing them all, hehe), you do have a very valid point there.
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No one has time for the GM team right now, so we make do as best as we can. We just got another long-wanted member (three cheers for Akaye!) and this will definitely help.
Thanks Karyuu! :D Hello everyone. Some of you know me as the character Zorbels in the game. Well I have finally had my interview with Talad and am now apart of the GM team. I joined to help the Gm team for many reasons but the most important to me was the roleplay events.
That being said I am going to work my little butt off and try to get some events going on, but this isn't going to happen over night. I need to clear somethings with Talad and I also now have a full time job. I am very commited to this game though and plan on helping the Gm team with roleplay events as much as possible.
This next part is abit off topic but maybe it will inspire some people to not always look to the Gm's to entertain them with events. You should all know (Especially the players who have been around awhile) that you don't need the Gm's to have a roleplay event. All you need is a good imagination and drive to get the events going. I can say truly as the character Zorbels, not once did any of the roleplay events I was apart of or that I held had the help of a gm (With one exception: The shadows roleplay with the war at the end, and thanks to Karyuu she made the event a little more fun). I did the events with friends, and had help from other players for a full year.
What bothers me the most is half the people I see complaining about the lack of gm roleplay events, are people who are fully capable of doing roleplay events themselves being darn good roleplayers and seem to have WAY more time to put hours into the game than the Gm's currently do at this point. In short they are doing the best that they can, if you think you can do better, well then apply to become Gm. After all as you can see the team is not huge and not all Gm's have the time where they can sit in front of the computer hosting a roleplay event. These events are time eaters, especailly when they become big and take alot of work to plan. Try putting one together and I guarantee you will understand.
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Karyuu, exactly what is wrong with engineering PS so that players can take care of themselves, and GMs are needed rarely, or not at all?
Xordan, you are right.
Even after playing PS for X number of hours, a player might become very familiar with the PS world and community, and still be an idiot.
Yes, such a one might make it into one of my proposed positions, as easily as they have done in the current structure.
But Xordan, it does not matter if that happens, and there is no need to prevent it.
Unlike the current GM setup, that idiot would quickly be removed by the other players, before causing much damage.
You know what self-correcting means, I am sure..
Suggestion: Weed out the GMs who haven't logged in for x amount of time or who cannot produce evidence of any sort of care for the PS community. Rework the GM rules/permissions. Change something. Obviously something is wrong.
I love this community to death and im tired of seeing quality members leaving, quitting, fading away, or whatever because of a few annoying, rude, and useless people.
Easton Ghent
Really big hugs, Easton. I know just how you feel.
But speaking of changes for the better...
ZORBELS, YOU MADE GM!!??
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy!!!!!
Congratulations, sweetie! :)
I know you have wanted this for a long time, and I know you will make a difference.
Reallly, really, really big hugs.
Anything you need, just ask.
~Verrliit~
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Karyuu, exactly what is wrong with engineering PS so that players can take care of themselves, and GMs are needed rarely, or not at all?
I do not share your grand utopian delusions of a self-watching community. No player is ever going to find him or herself equipped with /mute or /kick unless they are hand-selected. No amount of in-game hours alone are automatically going to make someone qualify. That's not even up for debate.
As for events, players often have ideas that conflict with PS settings. We have already seen that. To give everyone (with large in-game hours) even small GM powers and set them loose in the world to alter it will mean that everyone will be able to say "It's true because it already happened in-game." No way.
The GM system isn't perfect, but we are going to try to improve it. We're not sitting here admitting that things can be better without doing something about it. However, I know for a definite fact that the dev team will not agree with your truly wild idea of a self-moderating player system, a sure recipe for conflicts of all sorts.
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This got way off topic...
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Karyuu, exactly what is wrong with engineering PS so that players can take care of themselves, and GMs are needed rarely, or not at all?
I do not share your grand utopian delusions of a self-watching community. No player is ever going to find him or herself equipped with /mute or /kick unless they are hand-selected. No amount of in-game hours alone are automatically going to make someone qualify. That's not even up for debate.
Oh man, that would so make me download Planeshift just to see the fallout (under a different name of course or I'm sure Planeshift would explode)...Verrliit, I have to say, thanks for making me scroll down an incredibly large amount to read your one or two paragraphs worth of writing. Your post makes me curious though, are you perhaps a libertarian? :detective:
Anyways, can anyone think of a reason not to have the seperate RM/EM whatever (besides "too much work")? I find it hard to come up with reasons why if I don't have reasons why not...it just makes too much sense to me to have it.
This got way off topic...
Great, I'm glad you made an entire post that wasn't completely worthless to the conversation. It's not off-topic, by the way, as we're still discussing the issues covered in the original post. We just slowly swerved away from specifics to a broader view.
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Easton: I couldnt agree with you more.. thats really how I feel.
As for a player run community ingame.. what a great thing that would be if everyone could be trusted. But I do think that there are plenty of trustworthy people within PS. And something needs to be down to reinvigorate the community.
And as for the doing away with RMs.. I thought that was such a bad idea. Many people were very excited that they could throw these events only to have their hopes crushed. I think its still needed.. I understand that the GM team needs to be fixed first. Thats why they should be seperate. Most GMs wont have the time to set these events up because of what they already have to do. People specialized for throwing events would be a set up. Then again, I have no idea what would have to be down.. they would have seperate powers than GMs and im not sure which powers both should have.
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@ Zorbels:
I know people could make events themselves, but you're always limited by the game.
If a GM is either making an event or helping with one, you can create so much more atmosphere.
Just think about the Prince of the Rogues event in Ojaveda.
- A purple haze
- An invisible voice warning you upon entry of Ojaveda, and teleporting you back outside of the city
- Lots of rogues in Ojaveda
- Lots of dangerous npc's on the road to Ojaveda.
That's something you don't roleplay ;)
I agree most of the events should be held by players, but I and others am disappointed because GM events can just be so much fun, but there hasn't been one in ages.
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Karyuu, exactly what is wrong with engineering PS so that players can take care of themselves, and GMs are needed rarely, or not at all?
I do not share your grand utopian delusions of a self-watching community. No player is ever going to find him or herself equipped with /mute or /kick unless they are hand-selected.
Who said I wanted /mute or /kick?
To be able to teleport would be quite sufficient.
No amount of in-game hours alone are automatically going to make someone qualify. That's not even up for debate.
I see. So even if say, ten or twenty other players approve of them, experienced and seasoned players have to be favorites of yours to be allowed to do these things.
And we only get to debate things you like.
You only wanted to duck the accusations, not eliminate favoritism and abuse of power. My mistake.
As for events, players often have ideas that conflict with PS settings. We have already seen that. To give everyone (with large in-game hours) even small GM powers and set them loose in the world to alter it will mean that everyone will be able to say "It's true because it already happened in-game." No way.
We have clearly seen that the GMs are not immune to this, either.
And why do you need so badly, to be in such tight control of what the player community does, in a "Pre-Alpha Demo"?
The GM system isn't perfect, but we are going to try to improve it. We're not sitting here admitting that things can be better without doing something about it. However, I know for a definite fact that the dev team will not agree with your truly wild idea of a self-moderating player system, a sure recipe for conflicts of all sorts.
Yep.
And the players are more than capbable of dealing with conflicts of all sorts, if they are given the means to do so.
It is a statistical certainty, that out of tens of thousands of players, there is more talent, maturity, wisdom, ingenuity, imagination and art, than the Dev and GM teams could ever hope to match.
Why do you see that as a threat, and not a resource?
~Verrliit~
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/teleport for everyone?
Yeah that would be realistic:
/teleport me good mining spot
mine a bit
/teleport me harnquist
sell a bit
/teleport me arena
slay some monsters
/teleport me hide sell npc
sell a bit
Hey! Someone /tell'ed me for an event in Ojaveda!
/teleport me map ojaveda
Yeah, I see why that would be fun!
Wake up.
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[
It is a statistical certainty, that out of tens of thousands of players, there is more talent, maturity, wisdom, ingenuity, imagination and art, than the Dev and GM teams could ever hope to match.
Why do you see that as a threat, and not a resource?
~Verrliit~
If the player comunity has so much talent why arn't they contributing?
Before you ask why i'm not doing so it;s becouse I have no talent, maturity, wisdom, ingenuity, imagination etc. :D
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/teleport for everyone?
Yeah that would be realistic:
/teleport me good mining spot
mine a bit
/teleport me harnquist
sell a bit
/teleport me arena
slay some monsters
/teleport me hide sell npc
sell a bit
Hey! Someone /tell'ed me for an event in Ojaveda!
/teleport me map ojaveda
Yeah, I see why that would be fun!
Wake up.
Sorry to but in but if I am not mistaken at some point in time we will be able to teleport from/to set locations. cities etc.
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Sorry to but in but if I am not mistaken at some point in time we will be able to teleport from/to set locations. cities etc.
You are mistaken. Teleporting won't be something that players can do, or do without huge effort.
I agree with Karyuu and Thom. Giving teleport or other GM powers to players is the dumbest idea I've heard for ages. Nobody would walk anywhere. So it's never going to happen... ever.
I see. So even if say, ten or twenty other players approve of them, experienced and seasoned players have to be favorites of yours to be allowed to do these things.
Players have little or no say in such desicions and won't get any more say. GMs have to be approved by Talad after they _apply_. Current GMs can advise, but the final word is Talads. Favouritism doesn't really apply, because if Talad doesn't think they'd make good GMs, then they won't be one.
And why do you need so badly, to be in such tight control of what the player community does, in a "Pre-Alpha Demo"?
Because this is Talad's world and it'll work how he envisions it. If things collide with the settings too much, then they aren't going to happen. Giving 'supernatural' powers to players is one of those things. Anyway why do you need so badly, in a "Pre-Alpha Demo" to have GM powers which would ruin the game for so many other people? Take into consideration the people who would hate others teleporting around and using other powers. It's quite a selfish idea and sounds to me more of an attempted power grab than a solution to any problems.
And the players are more than capbable of dealing with conflicts of all sorts, if they are given the means to do so.
It is a statistical certainty, that out of tens of thousands of players, there is more talent, maturity, wisdom, ingenuity, imagination and art, than the Dev and GM teams could ever hope to match.
Why do you see that as a threat, and not a resource?
No they aren't. The majority of players have no capability to deal with such problems properly. Things would be utter chaos ingame if everyone had GM powers.
No it isn't. Probably the other way around. The majority of people who play MMOs are your average Bob Jones who has a average job with little skills to do something like this, and who doesn't want to, or teenagers who enjoy monster bashing/power gaming. There's also the category of people who highly over rate themselves and think that they're something superior to others.
We don't see it as a threat, because we certainally don't see it as a resource. There is a minority of people who do have all the skills you mentioned above, and those people should apply to be a GM/dev if they have the time, or if they don't have the time just put those skills to use making the game more fun for themselves and others by playing.
So basically, this will never happen.
We already have the ability to give temporary GM powers to players who we can trust to use them properly for good reasons like event running. I don't see that we need any more than that. How do we know if those people can be trusted? We know because those people are like Proglin who have made a big contribution to the game via events. I would have no problem giving a few powers to Proglin to help run an event, because he's proved himself by creating such material and running it successfully in the past. If this isn't happening then it should be and will be. Having a bunch of self-rated elitist players vote for their elitist leader or having us hand out powers because someone has hung around for a long time won't happen.
Also, events which conflict with the settings won't get any help from us. Talad has been very clear about that.
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@Thom: That would be considered an abuse of the power correct? Verrlitt pointed out that a person like that would not be trusted any longer and be stripped of their powers.
@Mardek: I think this whole post is about a player making a huge contribution and over time as he continues to refine his side of the contribution, he receives less support from those that he relied upon, in particular the GM's. You're probably making a joke, but it is really a slap in Proglin's face. If you have nothing to contribute due to your lack of "talent, maturity, wisdom, ingenuity, imagination" then /stfunoob
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Well, Raedin, that wouldn't work anyway, because players would break the rules faster than the smart trustworthy group of people would be able to strip their powers. And of course some funny guy could start stripping the good guys' powers. Giving GM powers to everyone is bad in any way. It just isn't going to work.
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but it is really a slap in Proglin's face.
1. That coment was not directed at Proglin.
2. I nominated him to head a new group of people who would make rp events and have the powers they needed to make that task easier
Read the WHOLE thred before you post next time
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Very off topic...you can say it all you want, but this went from Proglin's last tournament, to abusing GM powers and such. This isn't a thread for discussing who's a GM and who isn't, it's about trying to cheer Proglin up, or announce you'll miss his tournaments or something. Why don't you all go discuss this on IRC or something?
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Very off topic...you can say it all you want, but this went from Proglin's last tournament, to abusing GM powers and such. This isn't a thread for discussing who's a GM and who isn't, it's about trying to cheer Proglin up, or announce you'll miss his tournaments or something. Why don't you all go discuss this on IRC or something?
Well it kinda is on topic because people were discussing part of his post (the bit about not having GM help any more). It just spiralled downwards a bit. Nevertheless, you're right that this should go back more toward the whole of the original post and not turn into a GM power discussion (especially since there won't be any big changes to the GM structure, so discussion about it is a bit of a waste of time).
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Well I'm sure Proglin didn't want to make an arguement about GM powers and such. Did you notice he kinda stopped posting here? You guys really need to move the arguement.
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/me sighs and settles down to write a long post
First of: I haven't seen that thread since Karyuu poked me in the eye yesterday to read and post here.
I'm sorry to hear Proglin stopping the tournaments, but I think it's understandable. And that not only because of the lack of support by the GMs but also by many little disturbances accumulating. I think it's the best thing for Proglin to do. He also said that he won't stop playing, so nothing to worry :)
Everyone needs a pause from time to time, that's only natural. Especially after all the trouble he needed to go through, the huge efforts he put in organising the events, the RP.
Proglin, thank you. You have my respect.
Now to all the other stuff.
1. There was a seperated RM/GM team till the restructuring in january this year.
I was pretty new GM back then, but as far as I got it, the seperation sucked for multiple reasons.
It made organisation unnecessary complex. You often need GM commands when running an Event (to mute a spoiler for instance), but you don't need RP commands when GMing.
That means, RMs needed more powers than GMs, but yet they weren't involved in the regular GM stuff. Also, all the GMs who have the commands also can go on bughunting. The lack of communication between the teams was also a reason to abandon the idea.
Actually we still have the distinction, but not that obviously for outsiders anymore, yet less complex and more communication between the "teams".
The pure GMs have one level with all the necessary commands but without the RP stuff. The RP orientated GMs have the GM commands plus the RP commands.
In theory that would work perfectly well. But as my signature says.. no system can compensate the lack of personal opinion. And with lack of time, dedication or private problems you can screw every social system.
The GM team essentially needs more fresh blood, more regular meetings and a kiss by the fairy of inspiration and dedication. I'm happy to see Zorbels on the team now and I don't think it shouldn't take too much time now till most of the things get back to normal.
2. The problem with the "don't help player events" rule.
Everyone on the team had concerns about that rule set by Talad in the first place and still have. To understand that rule, you need to know that GM made events
should fit 100% into the settings. I think the hope was that we GMs become more familiar with the settings and can estimate ourselves what is ok and what is not, after having run a dozens of events.
He planned on abandonning this rule after seeing those events. However, there were too little events so far, thus no experience, thus no help for players.
This could change in no time.. if we showed that the official events fit perfectly into the settings.
3. /deputize.
The problem is that we still lack a clear guideline on how to use that command. Till then we try to avoid using it.
I, myself, find it very ok to deputize someone who showed that he/she is reliable and unlikely will abuse the powers given.
Although all GM commands are being logged, I find it necessary to report the usage of /deputize seperately.
If favouritism is a problem there, it isn't hidden, but can be seen by everyone and also being controlled by the other players.
Power abuse by a deputized player won't be a big problem this way, I think. The only problem that actually is one is that players (and thus deputized players) don't know the GM guideline.
4. GM rules
That leads to the problem of the non public GM rules and decisions.
Actually I regard all the decisions we take in the GM team regarding behaviour ingame as interpretations of public rules - the player guide.
We need to decide what is being regarded as bug abuse, what to do against disturbing behaviour, naming policy.. all that. We don't make new rules, we clearify existing ones.
If one read the players guide very carefully, one could logically deduce from that in 95% of all cases what is being regarded by the GMs as OK and what is not.
If a guideline that was decided by the GMs doesn't meet the general ruleset in the players guide, the guideline needs to be overworked, not the general rules.
It is a system that uses precedence cases and fundamental decisions, however it works out best. We can change the way how to judge and how to interprete the law, but we can't change the laws.
The main idea behind that system is that, as I said, players can deduce in 95% of all cases what is OK and what is not. The rest can be discussed in #planeshift-gmtalk for instance, not ingame. If players aren't sure about a rule and do wrong, we never punish them as first step if there is the slightest chance that a player may have misunderstood something and hasn't done, whatever he has done, intentionally. If people actually would listen (as it stands in the player guide) to GMs and trust that what a GM says is according to the rules, there would be no big problem.
But I think some players think that GMs just make up new rules out of the blue, giving the feeling of uncertainty.
I think it would make people more sure about what is being allowed and what not if they had the guidelines at hand we decided on. I also think it doesn't hurt to have the GM guide being published. Most of the rules and guidelines have proven themselves as reliable, and the main reason for not publishing ("we need to discuss and fix them") isn't valid anymore.
5. @ thomphoenix
Talad is project leader. Uyaem is GM leader. I am GM4, not leader.
Talad fixes the rules and laws and systems. Uyaem handles the personal concerns inside the GM team. I do my GM job.
[06 Aug 06 02:05] * Talad * ThomPhoenix is asking so many questions
[06 Aug 06 02:05] * Talad * questions on GM team
[06 Aug 06 02:05] * Talad * I redirected it to Uyaem or Ker_lap
It was about answering questions. He could have said any name, but he said Uyaem's and my name. Where's the problem with that?
Uyaem and I don't change the GM system, but we are able to discuss stuff with people, work out a proper request and ask Talad for approval. That's how it works.
6. While I see many valid reasons for complains and changes I recently also see a lot of complains that just look like people search for reasons to complain.
I don't think the summer slump has it's name for nothing..
And no, it has nothing to do with PS being "pre-alpha" or "just not finished yet". The community is not in "pre-alpha" state. We have problems that need to be fixed, I agree on that. But please be reminded to behave respectfully to EVERYONE while we discuss on how to fix them.. and not only then, hopefully. And that also counts for Karyuu, Raedin and everyone who thinks that bashing people with comments like "../stfunoob" and "I'm going to go and laugh now." are needed.
/me offers everyone a chill-pill
7. As for the auto-yield, I'm all for that. The winner still could have the chance of "your opponent begs you for mercy, do you really want to kill him? - yes/no".
That could prevent abuse of the system and give duels the right twist in general. Oh, and by the way, please set AUTO-ACCEPT OFF by default! It just sucks getting killed as newbie by somebody who thinks you're a spammer and challenge you right after you only said "hey! yo!".
Ending note:
You guys really need to move the arguement.
It were problems like those that created the situation and caused him to start the thread. If he doesn't post anymore, it doesn't mean that the discussion should stop. It won't work like "please dear Proglin, come back!; we need to change the situation. I'm sure he will come back when he notices that things have changed. Maybe he even will come back to move them by himself. The problems are here. If the solutions are in IRC, it doesn't help.
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At least make a new topic then. You guys filled up so many pages with this discussion, which to me is off-topic. I don't care if it's solving problems among GM's or something, it's off-topic and it doesn't matter what it's about. Please make a new topic about this, I'd like to be in one of Proglin's tournaments, if he ever makes them again, instead of seeing his post spammed by a bunch of people talking about what GM's can and can't do and who should be a GM and who shouldn't. It just isn't the place, and I don't care what any of you say.
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2. The problem with the "don't help player events" rule.
Everyone on the team had concerns about that rule set by Talad in the first place and still have. To understand that rule, you need to know that GM made events
should fit 100% into the settings. I think the hope was that we GMs become more familiar with the settings and can estimate ourselves what is ok and what is not, after having run a dozens of events.
He planned on abandonning this rule after seeing those events. However, there were too little events so far, thus no experience, thus no help for players.
This could change in no time.. if we showed that the official events fit perfectly into the settings.
Well.. i know you know how i feel about this Kerol, but seeing as how this is a forum, im trying to make certain issues public. I have tried to learn more about the setting. I feel that while the game is being improved and growing, i want to work out the kinks in my players RP. But i am soooo limited in what i know. So i just sort of go along hoping that im not completely contradicting something that will appear in a year. I've asked a few GMs and other notables about the setting, always specific questions that i would need for a certain RP and the answer i would get is "that still has to be decided". That was the last answer i would expect. I didn't know some things about the PS setting weren't even decided yet. And if this is truly the case.. then how can the RP events, GM-run or otherwise, be perfectly within the setting.
4. GM rules
That leads to the problem of the non public GM rules and decisions.
Actually I regard all the decisions we take in the GM team regarding behaviour ingame as interpretations of public rules - the player guide.
We need to decide what is being regarded as bug abuse, what to do against disturbing behaviour, naming policy.. all that. We don't make new rules, we clearify existing ones.
If one read the players guide very carefully, one could logically deduce from that in 95% of all cases what is being regarded by the GMs as OK and what is not.
If a guideline that was decided by the GMs doesn't meet the general ruleset in the players guide, the guideline needs to be overworked, not the general rules.
It is a system that uses precedence cases and fundamental decisions, however it works out best. We can change the way how to judge and how to interprete the law, but we can't change the laws.
There have been a few times where i have gone to a few GMs regarding a decision based on a certain rule, and i would speak to three different GMs and get three different responses. Now, that can be expected because you are all different people with different minds, but rules are rules. And i think GMs should be moreso on the same page than they are at this moment. It helps us players understand why we are muted, or kicked, or forced to do something because of a rule.
Note: Anyone saying this is off-topic is essentially wrong. Proglin made this post not only to announce his last tournament but also to raise the issue of the GM status in respect to RP events. He could have easily just announced thats this was his last tournament in game at the tournament. I speak with him everyday, i assure, he's reading this thread.
Easton
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Note: Anyone saying this is off-topic is essentially wrong. Proglin made this post not only to announce his last tournament but also to raise the issue of the GM status in respect to RP events. He could have easily just announced thats this was his last tournament in game at the tournament. I speak with him everyday, i assure, he's reading this thread.
Thank you for posting that, that spares me the snark :devil:
And if this is truly the case.. then how can the RP events, GM-run or otherwise, be perfectly within the setting.
By having it approved by Talad or someone equally qualified in that matter (I only can think of Darkmoon there).
They check if the event doesn't contradict with anything, they also have an idea of what will be in and what will never be in.
A GM event may introduce new things, and as Talad knows what happened, he can assure the consistency of future events, that they are canonical.
Later, when not all events don't require approval anymore, we still can ask the "source" directly.
This is also what you as player can do. Ask a GM to forward the questions regarding the settings.
I think it's also time to publish those "questions on settings" with answers we have already.
It helps us players understand why we are muted, or kicked, or forced to do something because of a rule.
Agreed. Don't know what can be done there, except publishing our guidelines though.
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So here is a major problem:
An IRC conversation I had with Talad.
I asked him a couple of times if he could make some changes to the GM team, like more GM's and more GM's with event-commands, all those times he redirected me to Uyaem.
From the conversation I understood that he doesn't bother about GM team changes, and Uyaem should just handle all that.
Uyaem is the leader of the GM team after all.
First of all, I don't understand how Uyaem would have all that decisive power when Talad was so very clear when the team was reformed that control of the GMs rested in the hands of the devs.
I can confirm it, Karyuu.
Thomphoenix spoke with Talad in IRC.
While they both were speaking, Talad spoke to the Gm-team too.
Talad said, that Uyaem and Kerol are in charge of the GM-team.
Talad also said that Thomphoenix should talk to them,
instead of with Talad, because Talad is very busy and does not interfere/like
to be bothered with GM-stuff.
5. @ thomphoenix
Talad is project leader. Uyaem is GM leader. I am GM4, not leader.
Talad fixes the rules and laws and systems. Uyaem handles the personal concerns inside the GM team. I do my GM job.
[06 Aug 06 02:05] * Talad * ThomPhoenix is asking so many questions
[06 Aug 06 02:05] * Talad * questions on GM team
[06 Aug 06 02:05] * Talad * I redirected it to Uyaem or Ker_lap
It was about answering questions. He could have said any name, but he said Uyaem's and my name. Where's the problem with that?
Uyaem and I don't change the GM system, but we are able to discuss stuff with people, work out a proper request and ask Talad for approval. That's how it works.
Tarel and Kerol interpretted the same event in totally different ways. Tarel took it to mean - GMs make the rules because Talad doesn't have time when it was really, "Talad sent Thom to get answers from Uyaem or Kerol" and nothing more.
I believe these little missunderstandings cause most of the grief here.
Araye
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Who said I wanted /mute or /kick?
Then you should try a bit more to make sure your posts aren't interpreted in a way you don't mean them to be. You wrote:
...engineering PS so that players can take care of themselves, and GMs are needed rarely, or not at all
So now you envision a community in which /mute, /kick, or /ban are not needed at all? Look, maybe your circle of friends behave perfectly, but they do not represent the overwhelming majority of players that come in.
I see. So even if say, ten or twenty other players approve of them, experienced and seasoned players have to be favorites of yours to be allowed to do these things.
What are you talking about? Why are you changing things around? You said that it would be an automatic server action that would give GM powers to players with a high number of in-game hours. Approval had nothing to do with your original idea, and I don't see what you are saying above.
And we only get to debate things you like.
You can debate all you want about weird ideas amongst yourselves, but some of them can be so ridiculous that there is no chance anyone on the team will take them seriously. So no, with the dev team, your automatic-GM idea is not up for debate.
You only wanted to duck the accusations, not eliminate favoritism and abuse of power. My mistake.
What did I accuse you of that wasn't true?
As for events, players often have ideas that conflict with PS settings.
We have clearly seen that the GMs are not immune to this, either.
Proof and concrete examples please.
It is a statistical certainty, that out of tens of thousands of players, there is more talent, maturity, wisdom, ingenuity, imagination and art, than the Dev and GM teams could ever hope to match.
Bullcrap. Then go contribute, or make your own game.
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If the player comunity has so much talent why arn't they contributing?
Before you ask why i'm not doing so it;s becouse I have no talent, maturity, wisdom, ingenuity, imagination etc. :D
I know some players who have made some great things.. Still are. But no matter how great they make this stuff it will likely never be put in PS.. why you ask? No idea.. because they have the talent and its good enough. If I had to guess I would say that Talad has a plan for everything.. and if it doesnt fit within the plan, its pushed aside.
Favouritism doesn't really apply, because if Talad doesn't think they'd make good GMs, then they won't be one.
Have you seen who is on the GM team and how its always been? You only make it if you are a favorite.
But no one is saying that players should be able to teleport and all those other things that would make people abuse the power.
And as for the topic of not knowing whats allowed(event) in consideration of PS' rules
Im not really sure either.. If we had a better definition on that matter it would really help out I think.
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I know some players who have made some great things.. Still are. But no matter how great they make this stuff it will likely never be put in PS.. why you ask? No idea.. because they have the talent and its good enough. If I had to guess I would say that Talad has a plan for everything.. and if it doesnt fit within the plan, its pushed aside.
That's why people should apply and get given tasks which will be used...
Have you seen who is on the GM team and how its always been? You only make it if you are a favorite.
I suppose we should make it easier for people to apply then, and more directly. Every GM had to pass a private interview with Talad, so it's not just 'he's my friend, so lets make him a GM'.
But no one is saying that players should be able to teleport and all those other things that would make people abuse the power.
That's exactly what Verrliit is saying.
p.s. I fixed your quote :)
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I'm curious what you mean by "interview." Do you talk to him on IRC, or meet him in real life?
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Well... unless we all live in the same area as talad (which you will learn very very soon that we all do not) then no, it would have to be by some sort of internet form of communication.
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Thanks for fixing my quote btw.. but even though I shouldnt speak for them, most of the people that I know (ow the suspense) dont want to be held down doing something that their not into. So they make things that could very well be in PS.. atleast I cant see a reason.. why cant a group of people who move to a new land make a town ? :P.. From my understanding the devs do not accept random art contributions? But why not.. you dont even necessarily have to use it.. but there is much that could be just modified or whatnot and it looks like a win win to me. Maybe that would present a problem with PS having all the rights to the art or something. I dont know.
But I didnt mean to sound so negitive about the GM team.. i hear its changed.. But I would say its nearly impossible to get kicked off it. And many of the people are mainstays.. they have been GMs for years. And for all of them.. it doesnt mean there good ones ;). There will always be problems choosing who joins the team.. especially if the process is anything like it was before. I know its a bit different now.. just not sure how much.
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Who said I wanted /mute or /kick?
Then you should try a bit more to make sure your posts aren't interpreted in a way you don't mean them to be.
This comment could apply to your post too, Karyuu. Verrliit never speak about that. Your post could be interpreted as a flame which would be a violatation of the forum rules of conduct, wouldn't it?
We have clearly seen that the GMs are not immune to this, either.
Proof and concrete examples please.
This one, maybe http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24481.0
But well... feel free to assert GM never do any mistake, it's your forum.
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Verrliit never speak about that.
Umm, try reading the posts before replying. When someone uses a general statement, it should be read as a general statement, in this case meaning all GM powers. If someone wants to be specific then they should be.
This one, maybe http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24481.0
But well... feel free to assert GM never do any mistake, it's your forum.
Again, try reading the actual posts. Nobody said anything about GMs not making _any_ mistakes. Karyuu's reply was to the comment that GM's aren't immune from have ideas for events which conflict with the settings. Unless you start reading all the posts it just looks like you're trying to stir up trouble.
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Who said I wanted /mute or /kick?
Then you should try a bit more to make sure your posts aren't interpreted in a way you don't mean them to be.
This comment could apply to your post too, Karyuu. Verrliit never speak about that. Your post could be interpreted as a flame which would be a violatation of the forum rules of conduct, wouldn't it?
Anyone can interpret my post to be anything they wish. People can get all sorts of weird and bizarre ideas. But here's the thing: people who point at everything they don't like and scream "That's a flame! That's a flame!" are rarely taken seriously. (Not saying that this is what you are doing, just so there's no misunderstanding. Quick post summary: what someone thinks may be a flame or spam, may not necessarily be a flame, or spam. Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean that you can manipulate it into being a fiery-post of doom.)
I need to take a deep breath though, that I agree with :> Can't get caught up in arguments here.
Sensible suggestions and ideas about the GM team are certainly welcome.
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Being that these tournaments have caused so much hype,
I hope everyone here can attend on Saturday, i know i'll be there.
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Ref being a GM was a post somewhere from Karyuu, explaining how, sorry cant find it, but from what i remember you have to be nominated by a GM, so ask them. if you want to be one, big grin consider it asked.
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@ Kerol:
I seriously got the idea Talad meant that Uyaem could decide if something needed to change, but apparently I was wrong.
This has probably to do with the fact that english is nor Talad's, nor my native language. We must've misunderstood eachother in some way.
There is only one solution to this: I will have to ask again ;)
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Wow... that was a lot of reading guys. Basically.... I think it would be a good idea to give the RM's, or EM's another chance. I don't need any powers to organise an event. It wold just make it less stressful. EM's (RM's) somehow sound like a brilliant idea.
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Wow... that was a lot of reading guys. Basically.... I think it would be a good idea to give the RM's, or EM's another chance. I don't need any powers to organise an event. It wold just make it less stressful. EM's (RM's) somehow sound like a brilliant idea.
:) Well anytime your ready to give the tournaments another go I will be more than willing to help you. Just say the word!
There is alot of reading in this thread. :o It has grown a huge amount since I was last on the forums. I only have one thing I want to address ....
This one, maybe http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24481.0
But well... feel free to assert GM never do any mistake, it's your forum.
I notice everytime you post you make it a point to direct it at Karyuu and try to word your post in such a way that no one can say you are flaming but for me you are cutting it close. If you have such an issue with her why not talk to her about it and if you can't then maybe just address the actual topic's and stop trying to focus so much on Karyuu. She didn't say Gm's don't make mistakes. In fact in the thread you posted that you thought you so cleverly pointed out ... she apologized on behalf of all the Gm's and felt that the situation was dealt with in the wrong manner.
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hmm in my experiences with the GM team I think there are good ones, but there are some bad things aswell.
One of the good changes I have seen is that Talad seems to have placed the decicion making about several things more in the hands of the GMs then in the hands of the devs. I feel this is a good thing becuase I feel the player would be heared a lot more and the distance between the players and the decicions would be a lot less.
One of the bad things I have seen is the absolute stop of GMs helping in RP events and the absolute stop of RP events made by the GMs. I would like to see PS as a place to Roleplay first and a game second. Sadly it's now moving more towards becoming a game first and only. Ofcourse this isn't the GMs decicion to no longer be allowed to do these things but still.
As for becoming a GM I have asked to be concidered myself. I however was not accepted. Not becuase one of the GMs had a problem with me but there was no strong supporter for me either I was told so didn't even get an interview with Talad. If you are thinking this sounds like you need a GM friend to praise you to even become a candidate GM I have to admit the thought has crossed my mind. The pallsystem doesn't sound like a good way to see if someone is suited to be a GM in my eyes.
Also several GMs seem to be awfully inactive. Even GMs I have spoken with admit themselves this is a problem but still no actions are taken. If you take a GM position you take reponsibilities. If you are not able to do this anymore no hard feelings but then you can't be a GM anymore in my eyes.
New GMs were promised ages back, but the number of GMs has hardly been increased while the number of players seems to have doubled.
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Pestilence, no one is forcing the GMs to be less activi. You see them less because there are far less Gms then there were months ago :P I was used to seeing 4+ Gms online at peak times, and now there can be one if you are lucky. However, blindly recruiting new Gms would just make matters worse, so a comprimise should be worked out eventually.
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Well Stfrn you are partly right but also very wrong in my opinon. The GMteam is diminished in numbers, but not that much to go from as you said yourself 4 at top times to now often not even one at those times. Also seeing it's been what? A half year now since the new rules went in effect? The lack of recruiting in no way lies, in my opinion, in that there has not been enough time to select the right people and not blindly add new people.
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I think the only problem that we can find here is that there is no oversight.
Any oversight there may be is too busy to confront the gms as well.
Some may be good some may be bad, but as long as there is oversight all will be o.k.
If we want to fix this, we need a strong oversight committee that will keep all gm's in Check.
Also we might wanna add more Gm's to the team, it's alot of work they have to deal with or atleast i've heard and i don't know if 4 or 5 people can handle it successfully.
Maybe rework the Gm recruiting guidelines.
I don't have all the answers these are just a few opinions i thought might help.
Hopefully they help you guys.
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No offense, but I find that laughable :)
I'm going to go and laugh now.
I know you'd like to give GM powers to players and eliminate GMs entirely, but you're living in another world, Verrliit. Please think sensibly.
who want's to play mutewar
from verrliit
To be able to teleport would be quite sufficient.
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
@zorbels/akkaye: sweet girl,congratulations and throw us some nice events and less headach players.
because of the lack of gm's online i(others too maybe) have had to deal with nut players by talking to them a problem which was really not yours but your friends, so you too it to group, it sickens me a bit that i had to use my time on this to ensure my friends well being.
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Akaye,
(It will take a bit to get used to the new name... :) )
You have shown me something that I need to post.
I have been "poking" at problems that have been sore points, and a source of intense frustration for some of the PS team, and most of the hard core PS players.
For doing this, I have been flamed hotly and extensively in this thread and others, and there has been a tremendous effort made to spin the meaining of my words, discredit me, and paint me as having wild ideas that make no sense.
It is my hope that the flaming was in vain, and those who read this thread will actually consider my thoughts as I posted them, rather than as others have pretended my words to mean.
That said, I have an obligation to perspective in this discussion.
Every player that has posted in this thread, loves PS, and dreams of what it could become.
None of us really wants to be in a fight with anyone, but while our community can survive a month without the NPC client, having such severely disfunctional GMs has caused great damage.
Since the beginning of this thread, we have gone from "we didn't know there was a problem" to publicly admitting that the GMs have been for the most part, broken, and are not a self-correcting structure.
It was painful getting here, but necessary.
In fairness, no one wants to be told that what they have put time and effort into, isn't working.
Given the time they put into the forums alone, I can see how Xordan, Karyuu and others, might take it personally.
But this thread isn't about them, or any other Dev, Mod or GM in particular.
It is about making PS functional.
And we all want that, don't we?
~Verrliit~
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I'd just like to point out that many GMs are on summer vacation now. I myself am away from my regular machine and thus have no access to PS until next week. People go to travel, or visit resorts, etc. Also a couple of GMs have had problems with computer/net access, one of which was solved recently. The other I believe is still waiting for access to resume.
Things come up. Keep this in mind when you wonder why you might not have seen such-or-such GM in a while.
*edited to add*
Verrliit, sometimes you overdo your "eloquence" and I have noticed that you enjoy blowing things out of proportion.
If you want to be taken seriously, post seriously.
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I'd just like to point out that many GMs are on summer vacation now. I myself am away from my regular machine and thus have no access to PS until next week. People go to travel, or visit resorts, etc. Also a couple of GMs have had problems with computer/net access, one of which was solved recently. The other I believe is still waiting for access to resume.
Things come up. Keep this in mind when you wonder why you might not have seen such-or-such GM in a while.
Do you all have each other's numbers in order to check up on each other?
If you did, maybe one could cover another person's slack.
And you made a good point, things do come up, maybe communication can fix that gap, if we see a loss in Gm's.
If you don't have each others numbers, i guess you could get them now and keep in touch from time to time, would help everyone work more efficiently.
If this is already implemented than, great job, communication is the first step to starting a strong team.
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Datruth, we live in different parts of the world. We have a separate forum section and everyone's email address, but when the majority is not available, the minority cannot do a successful job of covering the others' slack. We do keep in touch and we have a thread where we post if we know we're going to have a period of inactivity. But that doesn't help - all that does is warn the other GMs to brace themselves and deal with much more than they did before, as best as they can.
*edit*
What would people want at this point, exactly? Exactly exactly. If you make a suggestion like "someone overseeing the GMs", you have to mention the who part of it. If you want changes to GM rules, mention the which of it. It's specifics that help much more than generalities.
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What would people want at this point, exactly? Exactly exactly. If you make a suggestion like "someone overseeing the GMs", you have to mention the who part of it. If you want changes to GM rules, mention the which of it. It's specifics that help much more than generalities.
I do not know who would be in this committe and it isn't my place to decide.
I think talad should choose a group of individuals whose sole purpose is oversight.
But again, I cannot say, so and so, needs to be part of tihs group.
I'd gladly join it, but i don't know if Talad would approve me, if he would, than by all means.
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So you're thinking regular players? How would they be picked and what qualifications would they have to have? How many? They would have to be picked in an even stricter manner than the GMs are, since they would have to control GM behavior in a way.
Maybe we can avoid such complicalities and just get someone from the dev team to spend some time sorting around with GMs. That would be my preferences, instead of needing to train "GM Overseers" and having yet another group to manage and watch over.
How about we relax a bit for now, and take things one step at a time. With so many issues being thrown around, it's very easy to lose track of what was originally the problem and the suggestions made for the fix. Let's see where the player-events rule goes, and keep our fingers crossed for more GM events ASAP. I'm going to personally guarantee several next week unless something really serious gets in the way. Definitely feel free to quote me on that and poke at me with pitchforks.
We're not going to see GM changes overnight, as Akaye stated, so one step at a time - let's see if any more problems will come up, or if we can all loosen up our nerves and do a good job from now on. Players here have spent a lot of their time and effort voicing their concerns, and they are important. You're not ignored. Ignoring people like Proglin is a crime :}
So I ask personally, let's try to move forward while we sort out internal problems and try to reach solutions that will benefit everyone. You're all certainly free to continue posting with suggestions, but it is the suggestions that I would like to see at this point more than voices full of cries of injustice and wrongdoing. Sharing ideas helps us improve.
I know that there are a lot of people who are angry or upset, and it can be difficult to keep that inside. Please, send me a PM - I promise to listen and do my best in improving things for you. A few folks have already done that, and I think that we all gained something from the exchanges, and felt at least a tiny bit better afterwards.
I've never denied mistakes when they were made, and I'm not going to start. A lot of this has been very stressful, but I'm not going to be turning away.
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I'd just like to point out that many GMs are on summer vacation now. I myself am away from my regular machine and thus have no access to PS until next week. People go to travel, or visit resorts, etc. Also a couple of GMs have had problems with computer/net access, one of which was solved recently. The other I believe is still waiting for access to resume.
Things come up. Keep this in mind when you wonder why you might not have seen such-or-such GM in a while.
*edited to add*
Verrliit, sometimes you overdo your "eloquence" and I have noticed that you enjoy blowing things out of proportion.
If you want to be taken seriously, post seriously.
I am as serious as a heart attack, as playful as a kitten, in proportion as a ratio, and clear as a sunny day, Karyuu.
But I am top-heavy...
Sorry, I can't help that. :)
Please forgive my excesses of eloquence.
You are not hearing calls for more GMs to help save us from the noobs, even though GMs are in-game so rarely now, that the players are largely taking care of themselves.
A few of us have asked for more GMs, but only because we need help with more elaborate RP events.
If only a few players were able to teleport, (Proglin, and his staff, for instance.) that would instantly take care of most things we want GMs for.
And while you folks try to figure out checks and balances for control freak GMs, we can continue to play events.
It is by no means a perfect solution, but it is immediate, would take a lot of pressure off of the GMs, and it is good enough for a stopgap measure.
~Verrliit~
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Quote from: Karyuu on August 08, 2006, 11:05:08 PM
"What would people want at this point, exactly? Exactly exactly. If you make a suggestion like "someone overseeing the GMs", you have to mention the who part of it. If you want changes to GM rules, mention the which of it. It's specifics that help much more than generalities."
This is certainly a good read. Anyway....
This may be a little off the current subject, but here's what I think would help close the gap between the gm team on the player base. All to often, I would hear players refer to gm's with an uncertainly, some even being affraid of them. Heck, when I was new, and I saw a gm online for the first time, my first reaction was, "whoa, a GAME master!, they must be important, i'd better not go by em, as i wouldn't want to bug em" It's just to me anyway, there is a gap between the gm's and player base. There's a certain air of uneasyness or something about it. When really, the GMs and players should be working along side each other to create a better world for both.
So perhaps to better fill this gap I propose a few things. Make it more gm-to-player base friendly.
1) Have it publically available the rules GM's must follow. Put it side by side to the general players rules. Show that gm's are players too, just with more added responsibilty. This can also be used for when questions come up about actions taken by gm's. Prevent confusion why things were done as they were done. I don't know of any governing body that has rules, but doesn't let the populance know them. And afterall, that is the primary role of a GM. To make sure that the players are able to play without having "bad apples" spoil it for them. (Thus the discussion about a team for creating RP events, and a team for moderating can be brought up, but one thing at a time here)
2) I'd also like to see the minutes posted somewhere of the gm meetings that take place. Now I'm not a GM, so I have no idea what is talked about during those meetings. But, again, it would prevent confusion form the player base. As Miss K likes examples, lets refer to the one already pointed out. Referring to the Auction incident that recenltly happened. If the minutes of that meeting were posted, that decision could have been debated on, and perhaps none of that could have ever happened.
3) I'm not sure why exactly but before the restructuring, gm's didn't have to be invisible. I would occassionaly see one on the plazaa, standing, chatting with players, having a good time, getting feedback from the players about the world's happenings, staying informed and whatnot. Now that they have become "ghosts in the wind" well, it has reduced the friendly atmosphere between GM's and players. If at all possible, I'd wish that this rule be optional for GM's to follow. If a GM wants to be invisble fine, but if they wish to remain visible to the players, mingle with them, chat with them, just be friendly again, I think it would bridge the gap again. Now, I know that GM's are supposed to exist out side the realm of the game, that they are OOC, but by demanding that they be invisble, I think it has done more harm than good to the player base. When they were still visible, a simple explanation of they are figments of my characters imagination, was good enough for me. They were still able to do their job, be friendly like, and it didn't effect the RP atmosphere, well, not to me anyway.
GM's aren't hear just to enforce and punish. Their main goal is to make the game fun for everyone. Again, to me at least, becuase of this air of uncertainly or something, there seems a to be a gap between the gm team andnormal players. I'd like to see that closed, see the players and GM's work as a single unit, both supporting each other, rather than one ruling over the other. These types of threads are perfect for this. GMs need feedback as to how they are doing. It's a players duty to provide this.
Hope this helps.
Edit, sorry miss k, was typing while you and Verr had posted. Didn't read your posts till after I hit the post button.
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Though I wish a group could oversee the GMs so there are limited problems... sounds like too much bureaucracy. It might cause even more problems if its a newly trained group. So, that doesnt seem like its the way to go. Without knowing how exactly everything works now its hard to suggest anything. I dont know whether Uyaem (sp?) reports to Talad about what has happened each week, two weeks, or month.. Communication (if everyone had time) would be key.
I do think that the way to becoming a GM is a bit broken. Last I knew(when I became a GM) was you inform a GM that you want to become a GM.. if that person is your friend or knows you well enough (or just is bored and wants to bring the name up) they will make a post on your behalf in the GM forums.. Each GM whos active makes a post either saying yay, nay or abstaining.. I cant remember exactly but I do not believe simple majority gets you in.. and there are not too many votes anyway. Maybe up to 15 or so depending. It is very difficult to get in unless you have a friend on the inside.. or many friends. And if you are a controversial character good luck. Anyway, if after that point you pass, then Talad has an interview with you. Make it through that and you are a GM.
So for people who just want to help.. and are not out there getting to know people and whatnot.. its going to be tough for you. You have to be known. And sometimes its tough because some of the GMs are inactive (have been and always will be because everyone has obligations.. things come up). Other issues are the requirements, which Im not sure what they are anymore.. I know you have to be 18 (which didnt use to be a req.. crappy if you ask me) and I beleive there is a req on your time spent here.. or maybe that was just implied because you had to be a "Known" player.. 6 months to a year of being with PS. Hmm those are the only ones I can think of.
How can we fix it might be the question. Its a tough one. How do we make a group of people not follow their instincts or bias'? And its not like many people on the dev team can play enough to know who should be there. They make the game and dont get all day to play. Ill have to keep thinking.. its not something simple here.. been going round and round for some years looking for an answer. Let me add one thing though.. I do believe that the GM team has enough people who are genuine and want what many of us want. It will take time as Karyuu said. But hopefully more people who care about PS and less about power/ corruption come forward and rework the GM team. If that were the goal hell I would volunteer (though I might be considered one of those controversial characters these days.
Edit:
neko kyouran: Some good ideas there.. I believe your right about the rift between GMs and Players.. and your first solution is a good one.
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What ever happened to the RM team?
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Maybe we just need more GMs. Maybe those players which are deemed to be potential GM material could be asked if they would like to join. I don't know.. im trying to help.. :-[
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Hey, suggestions :] You guys rock.
If only a few players were able to teleport, (Proglin, and his staff, for instance.) that would instantly take care of most things we want GMs for.
I can definitely see giving temp GM powers to Proglin and similar players for tournaments or approved events. Approved, because we still have to make sure events won't alter the PS setting somehow. Temp GM powers, because the team even right now makes a very clear distinction between RP characters and their GM characters. They can't overlap. If Proglin were given GM powers to hang onto forever, it would alter his character - and give him power to influence the world in nonapproved events. Not that I don't trust the guy! Proglin is awesome. But GM powers for events are for approved events, and I think a temp setup right now will work okay. It can certainly be worth a try. (A thing worth mentioning - /deputize is temporary in that the effect stops as soon as a player logs off. So in case of a crash, one GM would have to stick around to /deputize again. Shouldn't be a problem though.)
1) Have it publically available the rules GM's must follow.
I see no problems with this as well, so I will try to pass this on. If anything, it will at least create a bit more trust. And new applying GMs will understand better what it is they are applying for, which is another bonus. Not like GM rules have any spoilers that I know of :] Let's hope Talad will see it this way as well.
2) I'd also like to see the minutes posted somewhere of the gm meetings that take place.
Also doable as far as I see - we're having a bit of a conflict with meeting times, as people are changing job schedules or taking new classes, so it's likely that the "meetings" will be held on our forum section. This will also need Talad's approval. I'd like to mention however that if our meetings discuss something like specific bans or player actions, those will remain private, and I hope that folks understand.
3) I'm not sure why exactly but before the restructuring, gm's didn't have to be invisible. I would occassionaly see one on the plazaa, standing, chatting with players, having a good time, getting feedback from the players about the world's happenings, staying informed and whatnot.
This one is a bit iffy, as Talad has been rather adamant about GM invisibility. I'd love to be visible and hang around with players, throwing them random riddles and apple rewards as I used to, and I think most GMs would agree. However, there's not much else I can say on the subject, except that I'll try to pass it on.
I do think that the way to becoming a GM is a bit broken. Last I knew(when I became a GM) was you inform a GM that you want to become a GM.. if that person is your friend or knows you well enough (or just is bored and wants to bring the name up) they will make a post on your behalf in the GM forums..
That's pretty much how it is, except there's no voting - opinions are posted instead and Talad makes the final judgment. It can be awkward - sometimes a name is brought up that no one knows, so we just have nothing to say and the nomination goes nowhere. I suppose we can have players submit nominations, but that's also very easily manipulated, so if anyone has any good ideas here they'd be appreciated.
What ever happened to the RM team?
The RMs were merged with the GMs, to eliminate too much work in managing both teams and to eliminate some redundancy.
Maybe we just need more GMs. Maybe those players which are deemed to be potential GM material could be asked if they would like to join. I don't know.. im trying to help.. :-[
Hey, if anyone wants to throw out any nominations, do it :] I'd recommend PMs instead of posting publically, but whatever way you may prefer.
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Half the fun of doing an event is putting the effort into it, running around like a madman on the loose getting things straightened out.
when you lost the patience to do this, you all lost hope to run an event as good as they were, craving gm abilities to make playing the game easier...
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Makiing the GMs invisible, did two things.
It removed their OOC presence...
And it pretty much guaranteed that GMs would never casually interact with players, or make a new friend among the players, unless it was in IRC.
And no, they can't just log in with their player characters. They don't have enough time to be GMs and characters too.
The social barrier between GMs and players, is far more destructive to PS, than their OOC presence ever was.
GMs are supposed to be our friends and helpers, not our keepers.
Mandating their invisiblility was as silly as forbidding OOC chat in ( ) or [ ] would be.
The experiment was a failure, Talad.
Let us see our GM friends again.
~Verrliit~
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The RMs were merged with the GMs, to eliminate too much work in managing both teams and to eliminate some redundancy.
There is no redundancy if the GM's rules don't allow them to help with evens such as those hosted by Proglin. The RM team was specificially for this type of event, and if the GM's are not allowed to help as Proglin says, then saying there is redundency is absurd. If anything they were the right idea. Haaving special GM's if only a few, whos job was helping with ingame rolplay events, seems to me a good way to not bother regualr GM's and to still keep up the RP events. People like Zan and Lordbug were the right people for this job. I was truely disappointed that their positions were eliminated.
Mandating their invisiblility was as silly as forbidding OOC chat in ( ) or [ ] would be.
I didn't know it was mandated - I just thought that they switched invisible to default is all. A GM could become visible easily. Of course that is assuming they want to... Probably better to just allow them the option of invisibility imho
The experiment was a failure, Talad.
Ouch! It may be quite possible that you are correct here, but .... I really only question the need for remarks that restate the same opinion in a way purely designed to provoke reaction... maybe I"m way off kilter here....
It is true that I have many objections to the way Talad runs things. I came to PlaneShift somehow under the assumption that players had some kind of influence over the direction of the game... things like wish lists, art contribution, etc... but I've grown more cynical over these things over the years. Sure one could become a dev or GM but really one shouldn't need to be "special" to be able to contribute. People who run these events ingame are doing the game a wonderful service, devoting time and energy to the game and its players in a way that few have, and yet it appears that the rules have been changed to make things more difficult for these people.
I really don't understand why there can't be someone on staff who has a gm'd level access character, and permission to make minor changes to planeshifts art for simple events. During the Hydlaa Festival of the Hunt I slaved for hours creating some minor modifications to the art that hung some posters ingame, and changed the arena banners. I had to try to convince everyone to download my mods however instead of having people get them through their updater in the days before the event, and then having the posters taken down the day after the event. These kinds of things are quite simple to do and if htere was someone on staff who was technically skilled enough to pull it off, and had a good understanding of settings and RP, I see no reason why this couldn't be done. The ability for GM's to "deputize" a character exists, so it would also be simple enough for this staff member to give temporary teleport capibilities to someone hosting an RP event that includes tournaments.
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Let us see our GM friends again.
i'm a bit confused, didn't you say somewhere earlier that gm's were good at ruining it?
Is this a change in opinions for you, then i'm glad you had it :)
Maybe we just need more GMs. Maybe those players which are deemed to be potential GM material could be asked if they would like to join. I don't know.. im trying to help.. :-[
agred... a nice gm for the european players too :P
You are not hearing calls for more GMs to help save us from the noobs, even though GMs are in-game so rarely now, that the players are largely taking care of themselves.
gm's doesn't have to take care of noobs, players can do that quite well as long as they don't flame them and so on, although it's a nice thought
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OK you asked for suggestions.
To be a GM go to irc and log into gm channel and leave a request, or PM a GM, then sit back and wait, as things take time, also they need time to evaluate you.
Rules should be made public before implementing them, gives us the time to adjust to them, making rules should be done in my view by top 3 Devs, then discussed with GMs before a final rule is agreed upon.
GMs should be able to do both Role Play and law enforcement, as it is part of game to Role Play. Ideally two separate groups should be the way to go as at moment combining seams to have been a big flop. As for the Role Play group fear of them misusing there powers go, they will still be subject to normal game rules, so Law enforcement GMs will have the power to do same to them as a unruly player. I hear you cry but there powers are better than mine, I say so what you still have the power to punish them if they do wrong. And you are there as a GM not for your level of power but to do a job.
Thats my thoughts on it.
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A few things;
GMs were made invisible by default because GMs are OOC as some of you have said. Also, the fact that a lot of other MMO's successfully work this way is proof that this does work (see WoW). There's no rule stopping them from being visible at any time if they see the need. I kind of like it this way myself.
When a person becomes a GM, they don't start at GM1. They get put at whatever powers they need. For example, Akaye is GM4 so she can run events. Having a seperate RM/EM team would be little different, because they would follow the same rules as the current GMs do for events and they'd have the same powers... it would just be another layer to manage.
Talad wants PS to have the best quality it can have from the art side. That's why we don't accept most submissions, because they're not up to standard. The ones that are however, I think we should accept. I would like to start up LWW again for people to submit to if possible, so there's a good way for us to look at submissions. It would be nice to be able to deliver art changes for an event like suggested through the updater, but the updater is a bit dodgy and very slow (our side) atm, so it isn't possible quite yet.
I disagree that the barrier between GMs and players is destructive. We (the players who were around then, probably before most of you had heard of PS) managed fine in AB and nearly all of MB without GMs. There was probably more roleplay then than there is now, and we had quite a thriving community. I see no reason why we can't have the same now, especially if you think that players can handle most of the noobs :)
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Hi,
I do think it is a good idea to deputize someone to help with events like Proglins tournaments. I see only one problem with having Proglin have this ability he is very busy during his tournaments and might not have time to do this so i would think that someone on his team should be set with this ability maybe a healer or ref so that they can teleport the players and Proglin can deal with what is going on as he has a very hard job organizing and running these events. I am not saying that for other events he might not be able to handle this it is just that at the tournaments he is so busy i don't see he would have time for this. I am aware of his job given that i have been a ref at most of his tournaments and i have seen all that he does behind the scenes that the players cant see. Maybe durning times that GM's are not on there might be a temporary way that a player in high standing can have be let say gm1 for a few days to help take the load off the GM's when they get back.
Illori
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Ok, maybe this discussion is slightly about GM's, but not about what everyone mentioned except Illori. I don't see what the problem is with GM's not helping out with the tournaments, and it would be nice to have an official one. Instead of talking about GM invisibility, and GM powers, and who's a GM and who isn't, why don't you talk about why GM's can't attend the tournaments? You guys flew way off topic and started talking about things like this, when really the only things that should be discussed about the GM's is teleporting who and when (say if they die in the middle of a tournament), and moderating the tournament...or I should say being an official ref. Other than that, I have no idea why you guys started talking about GM powers such as invisibility and things.
And just a note to save a lot of trouble: Make becoming a GM easier. I think a few posts back someone mentioned only favorites becoming GM's, and I think that person was right, because I digged in Zorbels' history and found her in a lot of stories and RP events, along with a few others such as Rilar, and Keyaz. Instead of picking roleplayers, you should pick people who will actually test, and help others. Maybe some of these people helped, but I fail to see any of them test, but instead only go afk ingame. I see more GM's on the forums than I do ingame, and I believe it will continue to be like this until there's actually more people able to apply, so some active players will be ingame always without people having to resolve an idiot bothering them in the tavern themselves, which only leads to more trouble.
Now, that being said, there are no reasons why NORMAL players, or long-time players can't all become GM's. If that person is willing ot test, help others, moderate, run events, and all these other things, they should be able to apply. Now you shouldn't recruit very new players to the team (I'm new myself), but once we learn more about the game, and are able to answer questions instead of ask them ourselves, we should have a chance to maybe have a test day; one day of having GM powers and moderating, just to see what it's like. If we were to do a good job, we could join the GM team. But right now, picking out favorites who haven't actually tested, or done much other than post 1000 times on the forums, isn't a good way to do things. Maybe Zorbels will be a good GM, I don't actually know her, but right now the way GM's are picked is a little biased on how long people play, or how active they are on the forums.
Ok, enough of my off-topic GM chatter.
Oh, and my example: Tarel and Kerol are on the forums now. Where are they ingame?
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Hi,
I just wants to add a few more things here. I spend a lot of time on irc and a lot of time ingame. I have seen this summer a lack of GM's in game and a lack of willing GM's on irc so i dont see that they do anything to help. I have seen Kerol in game sometime but only when he wants to go in or someone makes him go on to fix a problem but he is not always willing to come on a fix a problem. I have also seen a few other GM's on the #planeshift-gmtalk channel and i see they lack the will to help planeshift they like to just be there and do nothing. I have seen Tarel in game but he is of low level so he cant do as much as someone with GM3-4 skills so again we have a lack of abliity to get things done. I see we have GM's just a lot of them (perhaps some of the older ones) are lacking the time to continue this task and maybe they need to be removed or more need to be added to the team that are active as in are ingame and not just idle on irc so they can do what is needed then and not called in game because of an issue needs to be taken care of. I have made petitions for characters to be renamed and seen them sit for days before a gm has logged in to rename them it does not take a lot of time to do that so i dont see why this cant be dont on the day of the petition and not days later. I know GM's are people and have things to do but come on they have been selected to do a job and if they cant be bothered to do it then they dont need to have the job just like in the rl if you dont work you get fired. Also more people that are active should have the ability to become a GM just because someone lacks RP does not mean they cant do a great job helping the GM team they could even be on when another cant be to help with an event or solve other issues ingame when the GM's the can RP are not around. The only GM that does a lot when ingame is Bakuun/Karyuu and I wish more GM's would be like her.
Just a few thoughts,
Illori
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Illori, Kerol has come on every time I asked him to... And I have seen him on a LOT....
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When a GM is on IRC, he could just as well be in-game. You shouldn't have to ask them to.
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Cool, I'll try to be there and make that new patch work ^_^
but it's sad that you stop :(
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I just want to return to the GM invisibility thing one more time...
I agree with Xordan on this one... GMs are, by definition, ooc, and therefore shouldn't be seen around unless everyone acknowledges they are OOC. I remember seeing GMs in the plaza all the time, sometimes interacting with people and other times just standing there. I think it is better RP-wise that we do not see GMs except for rare occassions where they are either asking for your help, asking for information, mediating an OOC argument, or doing other GM things. Lately, the only times i have spoken with GMs is in a very secluded place and for very valid reasons. (such as bug testing and investigating an incident) Despite their invisibility, i've always been able to contact a GM and talk with them when needed. Sometimes i have to wait a few minutes, which is completely understandable, but for the most part GMs are there.. just invisible.. kinda like the wind.
But this may be because i know all of the GMs names, and they are on my buddylist. Younger players don't know any and have no idea where to begin to find them. So i don't know how the relationship is for them. But then again, are young players really looking to join the GM team. When they want to join, they'll ask around, and they'll probably be a bit more "fluent" in the way things run around here.
But yes.. posting the GM rules or whatnot is a great way to open the communication a bit, and yes Karyuu, i understand that specific issues and names and whatnot would still be kept. That makes sense. :)
Easton
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Accessibility is one thing that would definately help. :D If we could easily contact GM's or at least click somewhere to see which are online that might be helpful.
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You can contact GMs by creating a petition. At least, you could the last time I checked.
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Type /who game
grins
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You can contact GMs by creating a petition. At least, you could the last time I checked.
That works long term.... I meant a way to contact them ingame immeadiately...
/who game
???
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GMs get alerted when a petition is made. They should check it fairly quickly really....
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Yes, the /who game command shows the GM's that are online. And petition are used to contact GM's in a more indirect way.
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@Induane
'/who' is a command that lists players currently online. Using game as a search modifier will return all those players currently online with the word game in thier name and or guild name.
Say Bakuun was online in game, doing a '/who game' command would return: Bakuun, level (what ever level she is) of Game Masters, or something very close to that, I forget the exact wording.
Mirashi, threads evolve, that is thier nature. If this really is so offtopic, the forum mods would split it. Have a little faith in your forum mods, they tend to have sound judgement most of the time.
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Instead of picking roleplayers, you should pick people who will actually test, and help others.
I do all of those things. ???
So let me get this straight ....... because you can't find anyrhing on the forums about my testing the game, means I don't test the game? Well if someone asked me instead of just taking it upon themselves to assume I don't, I would tell that person that I test the game everytime I am logged on. I have always reported through petitions and IRC. I just recently found out that posting my findings in the forums was the proper way to go about it. Most of what I find has been reported by another player already.
Now as a Gm I have responsiblities. I accepted that I was to help people in game. For example if they were stuck and needed moving or a name change because the name didn't fit into the planeshift settings. I am there to take petitions, and help resolve any conflicts that may arise between players. I am here to answer any questions with answers that are not considered spoilers for newbies. I am here to help make more roleplay events for the players of planeshift to enjoy. I am to report any bugs that I may find, or give ideas about the game that I think Talad and the devs may find helpful. I am here for many more things I am sure I don't know yet because I just started not even three days ago with being a GM ...... between my new full time job and a Gm guide presented to me by Talad I still have a ton to learn.
I think a few posts back someone mentioned only favorites becoming GM's, and I think that person was right, because I digged in Zorbels' history and found her in a lot of stories and RP events, along with a few others such as Rilar, and Keyaz.
Where in all of this do you see roleplayer? Gm characters are OOC, and Zorbels the charcter has nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with my Gm character. It is the face behind the player that got the Gm job, not the character Zorbels. Otherwise I would be using Zorbels for my Gm character.
I am insulted just a tiny bit that you think I recieved this title as a gm only because I roleplay or favortisim. Though in a silly way that can also be taken as a compliment. I recieved this job as a gm because I like to help people, I am a fair person, I am smart, I have been dedicated to this game for a year and two months, I have developed good relationships in planeshift with many of the players, I listen, I pay attention to detail, and because I passed the interview which has nothing to do with anyone but Talad. I have never meet Talad in my life, so I am pretty sure I didn't get the title Gm because I am favored. Also roleplay is a big part of the game, so it is an added bonus if the Gm has such a skill set. When Noxide (Another Gm) came in to game, I had not seen him once roleplay. He was more for the technical side of the game. People complianed to my own ears that he didn't roleplay enough to be a gm. Now I am being told I roleplay to much and thats the only reason I got the job .... well that and favortisim. I think Mirashi you should perhaps research a little more, because not everything I have said and done revolves around roleplay.
@ everyone: This thread started out being Proglins thread about his tournaments, and how a certain "TWO" people had been causing him headaches with his tournaments. I don't think it was his intention to have people gang up on the Gm team and begin to point out faults or have the public make up a system for the Gm team. IF you all take a look at the bigger picture you will see that the team is to small to meet the publics demands right now and the rules we follow aren't set by us, we just follow them.
Look at the list, some of these people are full time students and getting ready to go back to school after a summer of visiting family and their vactions. They may even on top of that have part time jobs. Some of them have full time jobs. Some of them have other activities besides sitting at the computer all day serving PS players. Some of them are devs and have other responsiblities to the game. Some of them have families they need to spend time with because that is important. One Gm I know of likes to travel alot and doesn't always have access to a computer. Oh and lets not forget that some where in all of this we need to eat, sleep, and meet our basic daily needs. Please keep in mind that Gm's try to do their best and will continue too. We follow the rules that have been given to us and put in time when we are avalible.
Uyaem -- GMlvl: 5; timezone: GMT+1
Bakuun -- timezone: GMT-8
Akaye -- GMlvl: 4; timezone: GMT-07.00
Chaos -- GMlvl: 4; timezone: GMT-5
Hadfael -- GMlvl: 4; timezone: GMT+1
Kerol -- GMlvl: 4; timezone: GMT+1
Drey -- GMlvl: 3; timezone: BST (for a while)
Frostmorn -- GMlvl 2
Noxide -- GMlvl: 2; timezone: GMT
Syilph -- GMlvl: 2; timezone: GMT+2
Tarel -- GMlvl: 2; timezone: GMT+1
Now to address the inactive issue: If a Gm becomes unable to preform tasks in planeshift due to a busy schedule, I don't think that is fair to say that they should be stripped of their title. That is like giving someone an award because they are a great artist. Then taking the award away because they stopped drawing. How is that fair? They are still a good artist but they have found other responsiblities and activities in their life and can't just focus on the one. So they should be punished for expanding their knowledge? Give me a break!
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You can contact GMs by creating a petition. At least, you could the last time I checked.
I've had a petition up for about a week now that has gone unchecked, and I submitted another about 2 days ago, which is also still floating around in my petition box. No one's checking them. I haven't gone ingame to check if they're still there or not, but I'm getting annoyed.
And Ayake, I'm sorry, right now I'm treating all the GM's as one. Like I said, I don't really know you, nor have I seen you ingame, but people are excited you're a GM, so I'm sure you'll do a good job. It's just I've seen a lot of GM's so far that hang out on the forums - a place they don't even moderate - and completely stay out of game. The only GM I saw online so far today was Noxide, and my petitions still haven't been picked up. They're bug reports, so I could report them on the bugtracker, but before I do I want to make sure with a GM that it hasn't already been reported.
But still, moderaters should stay on the forums, GM's should stay ingame. I've seen times when there have been 4 GM's on the forums, and none ingame, which by the way the servers WERE up at that time. It's disgusting to me, and I hope you, Ayake, can make a difference like everyone says.
Edit: I just checked ingame, and someone got my petitions. Thanks whoever did.
But at the same time, three GM's are on the forums, none ingame.
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Now to address the inactive issue: If a Gm becomes unable to preform tasks in planeshift due to a busy schedule, I don't think that is fair to say that they should be stripped of their title. That is like giving someone an award because they are a great artist. Then taking the award away because they stopped drawing. How is that fair? They are still a good artist but they have found other responsiblities and activities in their life and can't just focus on the one. So they should be punished for expanding their knowledge? Give me a break!
Zorbels (do you mind if i stick with Zorbels?) you know i respect you, just like everyone in this community, btu i have to respectfully disagree with your analogy here.. I don't think the GM title is an award in anyway. Some people may seek it out as a status symbol, and it is those people who i do not respect, as players, or GMs. It tends to be those people who finally get to be GM and think they can sit on their throne (IRC) and watch the peasants mingle. To me, being a GM is a job, not in ANY WAY an award. It is another responsibility. A way to help the community, to moderate it, to keep it in line. But most importantly, help it. People who fail to do this job for an extended period of time should be removed. Just like when you have a guild member who is inactive for a long period of time with no notification. It is of course, up to the powers that be to remove them, and to decide how long is too long.
Note: Im not saying you (Zorbels) sought to be GM as an award. I know you well, and i know you wouldn't do that. I think you'll do great, and i can't wait to see you in action. I just really don't want people to think being a GM is an award. Because it isn't.
Easton
Edit: Mirashi: previously you stated that Kerol was on the forums but not ingame, but i have to say you may be inaccurate in a sense.. you see.. I'd argue that Kerol is probably the most active GM we have right now (in-game-wise). Just thought i'd point it out..
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Well I've failed to see him ingame in two days, while he's been on the forums for a long time.
When people agree to become GM's, they take on a handful of responsibilities, yet when they actually become a GM, they don't do crap. This is the point I'm getting at: Get your lazy asses ingame and HELP! Yesterday my friend was stuck in the coding, and unstick wouldn't work. She was lagging badly, and the only way out was /die. I looked for a GM in the online list, but guess what? No one was online. She had to /die, and 30 minutes later she finally got back, spiking really badly. Every day something happens, but the GM's would rather stay on the forums and try to defend their good names, instead of actually do what they're saying they'll do. If you're going to say you help others, HELP THEM. If you say you're going to test, and submit bugs, DO IT. If you say you're going to read petitions and help out, DO IT. Don't just SIT HERE on the FORUMS, a place you DO NOT moderate, and try to defend your names with a bunch of bullcrap you never do. This is the worst form of lazyness I've seen on a GM team in ANY game. I'm disgusted with it. ESPECIALLY when GM's will idle ingame, and sit there for about an hour with my tell to them just sitting there asking them for help. An example would be Tarel - who I sent a tell to about an hour before he logged out. He just sat there afk, and I kept checking the /who game list every 10 minutes. After about the 6th try he was gone, and my tell was never answered, and I was never helped.
Like I said before: When you become a GM, you take on a HANDFUL of responsibilities. You can't afford to sit around like this making up crap to try and defends yourselves. Here, Ayake, a few people are saying they're glad you're a GM, you'll make a difference, but I still fail to see you ingame, and right now I consider you just like the others - lazy, and unwilling to go ingame for about 10 minutes without going afk to help people. If you can't do these simple things, you don't even deserve to be a GM. I don't care how many friends you have, but right now, as a GM, you have to take on the responsibilities, not sit here having everyone kiss up to you. I don't care if you get offended by this, it's the TRUTH, and I'm dead tired of it. We need ACTIVE GM's, who know what the word responsible means.
Edit: Now there are four GM's on the forums, NONE ingame. This is REALLY disgusting...
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The only GM I saw online so far today was Noxide, and my petitions still haven't been picked up. They're bug reports, so I could report them on the bugtracker, but before I do I want to make sure with a GM that it hasn't already been reported.
:) Sometimes the bugs you report have already been reported. As I said in my last post, it is better to report your bugs on the forums in the technical section. This is what I have been told by some Gm's, and Dev's.
But still, moderaters should stay on the forums, GM's should stay ingame. I've seen times when there have been 4 GM's on the forums, and none ingame, which by the way the servers WERE up at that time. It's disgusting to me, and I hope you, Ayake, can make a difference like everyone says.
I am not allowed to voice my opinion on the forums because I am a gm now? That seems silly, a Gm is only another player but with experience with the game. Plus we represent planeshift. I think it is a great idea that Gm's are active on the forums. It helps new comers understand and see how this community is. If Gm's didn't answer on the forums then people would start to get upset about Gm's "not caring" as they have done with the dev's in the past.
But at the same time, three GM's are on the forums, none ingame.
Maybe they are all busy. I know I am. :sweatdrop: I am sitting here having my morning coffee, trying to stay caught up with planeshift before I have to go for a nine hour shift in a half hour.
To me, being a GM is a job, not in ANY WAY an award
PLease by all means stick with Zorbels. I am ok with that, people have become used to calling me that. The two characters just have different responsiblities.
*hugs* Easton my friend you are mixing up my example. In no way did I say that Gming is a reward. No way!!! It is alot of work, and that is what I was trying to get at. People seem to be expecting miracles from the Gms. What they are not understanding is we have lives, and we move on. We have other things that interest us and it isn't fair to strip them of their title because they seek out new things to do in life. Also we are a small team, we can only do so much. I think once we have a bigger team these issues won't be there as much. I do agree though, if a Gm is in IRC and they have the time to help a player but don't (or at least doesn't have a good reason on why they can't help if they are active in IRC), then maybe they should reconsider being a Gm. After all that shows they are not commented as they once were and that is just being plan out lazy. Idling in IRC is not a tell tale that the gm doesn't want to help though if they haven't been entering text. They could just simply not be there.
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Where to begin..
@Mirashi: First off.. when you are stuck in the coding you should use /unstick. if that fails, then you use /die. if for some reason you cannot use /die, then you contact a GM. GMs are a sort of last resort in that case. I've only had GMs port me a few times and that was because my game would freeze and i wasn't able to use /die. But guess where they port you?? the DR. So /die and contacting a GM are the same thing. Just contacting a GM takes longer sometimes since they have to locate you and whatnot.
Secondly.. I have this nagging feeling (and please don't take this the wrong way, im trying to be very very fair here and im not putting you or anyone else down in any way) that you may be relatively new to the community. Which is fine. But that being said, i think you should take a bit more time than you already have to see how the GMs are. Typically, a GM coming on once every two days is a great record. And that is generally considered active.
As for GMs not answering your /tells: i assure you they are not ignoring you. Many times they are busy with other PS-related things and may not be able to answer your call every second. It is reccommended that you give them a /tell and wait a few minutes. Everyone goes AFK from time to time for a snack, or some other reason, and you may have caught them at a bad time.
Basically, im defending those GMs which i consider active and, in my book, "good". Kerol is one of them. There are some other names you could have mentioned and i would have totally agreed with you. This is just me trying to be fair. Not an attack, and definitely not a flame.
@Zorbels: i don't mean to say, "if a GM is in IRC they're in the wrong place." Many of those GMs i respect go in IRC regularly, and this is a good thing. But anyways.. i still do think if GMs are neglecting their duties, for a good reason or otherwise, if it has been long enough, maybe they should be removed if they don't answer to a poke or two. Just a suggestion.
Easton
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They are right though, you are a nice GM Ayake. And you're right, GM's are players too, and they have a life also. But, if you can't actually go ingame to do your job and help others and things, you should lay down the GM role and wait until you have time to actually do it. Same with the other three GM's who are on the forums right now, if they don't have time to actually go ingame, then they should lay down their role. We need active GM's, not idle GM's who come on the forum once every 4 hours and try to defend themselves with some crap saying they help others, because as I see it, they just like to show off their flashy Game Master label on the forums, and try to make people kiss up to them with lies. I want to see someone do something, not sit here and make up lies. People need help all the time, which a lot of times isn't just questions that can be asked in the help channel, but instead real problems that only a GM can help with.
I do know a few nice GM's, but when it comes right down to it, other players, like Easton, Janner, and Constrabus, actually do their job better than the GM's themselves. They help others when they can, and even though they don't have any powers, can solve a lot of problems. Now if we could get some actual GM's to do that, with their powers that can get people out of tight situations, and submit bugs and things, there would be no problem. Instead, I'm seeing a lot of lazyness.
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Here, Ayake, a few people are saying they're glad you're a GM, you'll make a difference, but I still fail to see you ingame, and right now I consider you just like the others - lazy, and unwilling to go ingame for about 10 minutes without going afk to help people.
What you just said is really rather rude and shows how closed minded you are. Do you have a full time job? Would you want to start out your day with people demanding you to go into game and do things for them? Or would you just want to have your coffee and sit and chat with your daughter (I have one) and read up on the forums? She is telling me about what she has been doing all week because I haven't seen her much. Which is more important to me do you think? Listing to your whinning about gm's being in game or hearing how her week went. What do you think is more important to her? PLus as I have mentioned in my other post (And this clearly tells me you are being lazy and not reading them) that I have yet to learn my job. What use would I be to the people of planeshift if my answers were always "I don't know?" I need to read the Gm guide that Talad gave me and learn the commands.
Do you think I am stupid enough to just go into game and start Gming, or smart to sit down and actually read what I am and am not allowed to do. I think Talad would prefer the last I suggested. Why do you think people are excited that I made gm? I can tell you why, because I don't rush into things and when I do a job I do it right. I put time, thought and effort into it. If you think you can do better then why don't you apply for the gm team? Your rants are becoming tiresome. I will enter the game when I damn well feel like it and when I have the TIME. I am NOT here for your beck and call. Now if you'll excuse me I have to log off to feed my daughter (because that is more important than helping someone out of the DR in the game :/ ) and then go to work.
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Mirashi I am sorry but you must give her a chance she is right she must learn first, as for the research you did, sorry but it does not add up, you admit you don't know her in game I do and she puts a lot of hard work into this game, so I for one think she will do the same as a GM, so please give her first time to learn her JOB.
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If you can't take on those GMing responsibilities, you shouldn't be a GM. You should consider your full-time job, before accepting GM status, because there's no point in you being a GM if you don't have enough time to moderate the game.
And I'm not close-minded, I did say I understand that you have things to do in real life, too. But, by accepting GM status, you have a lot more responsibilities, and they need to be taken care of, along with your regular. Being a GM doesn't mean joking around and having fun, it's almost like volunteer work. You don't get paid, or get any reward, it's something you yourself must decide to do or not. If you're up to moderating and helping others, then you should become a GM. But if you have too many things to do already, you should reconsider joining the GM team.
I'm not trying to sound rude, but you shouldn't bite off more than you can chew.
And Janner: I know she's a new GM, but she should go ingame, maybe just to get the feel of being a GM, and walk around and see if people are stuck anywhere, or go on the advisor channel and answer some questions. Or just wait and see if anyone asks her for help, not sit on the forums. I know very well she can't do this 24/7, but we need active GM's, and if they accept the job, they should at least go ingame every once-in-a-while, and not have all the GM's here on the forums doing nothing, while people need help ingame.
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No interest in starting a war of words she has a lot of new key commands to learn first as well as rules so it would be foolish for her or any new GM to enter game before learning them.
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Well I'm sure that Tarel and Kerol would know the rules by now, but I still fail to see them ingame. And when they are, they're afk. Anyone who can't stay ingame and actually moderate like a real GM, should lay down their GM status until they can actually do their job. Being a GM is voluntary. They volunteer to this work, just like how the devs made this game in their free time. If the GM's accept the role, yet do nothing, it's pointless, and means they probably just wanted GM powers for their own gain, because I fail to see any kind of help to me or my friends. And Ayake, I'm not addressing this to you, you are a new GM, and probably do need to learn your part better. At the moment I'm addressing Tarel and Kerol, and especially all the GM's on that list that I've never seen ingame OR on the forums.
People say Kerol's one of the best GM's, but I want to see it for myself. We need a larger GM team, and maybe each in their own time zone, active throughout the day, so that people can go to a GM when they need it, and not have to wait for peak hours. Yet, even in this game's peak hours, all of the GM's are never online. And especially when GM's are mostly picked by favorites, the GM team will remain very small, and chaos will be allowed ingame with no form of punishments to the idiots causing it all. And people will go without being helped when they're stuck and not able to move at all.
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Some very constructive posts have come about in this thread and I hope Proglin can see a sense of headway being made here.
(please please please don't quit, hiatus perhaps???)
Now, i may be coming from left field here and i know some will not like it, but it needs to be said. Becoming a gm should be based on who you know, on how long you have been playing, on how well you role-play, one's presence on forum, and the success of your events. To suggest the contrary is daft imho. Here is how I see this issue broken down.
who you know
It is vitally important that the gm know the player base and have some relation to them, it is more important that the players know them. Obscurity is the enemy of communication. GMs must also show a degree of tolerance and patience which would be evidenced by their relations with the community (the person who blows off or ignores newbs should probably not take the job). This extends also to the issue of favoritism, you can't be a gm because you know (or you and all your friends know) you would make a good one, you propose becoming part of a team, a group that works together. Not everyone in the team needs to be friends but there has to at least be mutual respect. Respect is something established over time.
how long you have been playing
This is a no brainer. Trust comes over time. The players grow into the game eventually; they come into their characters more and more as months pass. It actually takes a great deal of time to find a niche in this maelstrom. One must study the settings remarkably close, know all the in game literature and have completed most of the quests just to get all of the information needed not to violate the settings (which GMs must do to host an event). Not only would one want the players to trust and respect them, but one would need the gm team to trust and respect them. This only occurs at the pace the community allows and it is slowly. I would hope by now to have some of that trust and respect, but i cannot assume it is so. As I see any potential GM would have "put in their time."
how well you roleplay
mmoRPG, this is beyond the shadow of a doubt one of the single greatest criteria that should be considered in selecting GMs. If one is able to rp at all in PS they have learned a lot about how to deal with people who do not rp and are certainly capable of meeting non-rpers needs. In order to meet the more complicated needs of role-players however dictates first hand knowledge of the needs and wants of a role-player. A GM that does not roleplay is like a director that has not studied acting, preposterous, a composer who plays no instruments. No No No I say.
If unable to see through the wild eyes of that rare imaginative kid on a computer somewhere in Kansas, who has read all the material and who is just about to start his first guild fulfilling some needed role in the community, a gm has lost his or her way. And any player who has not done as much as that kid from Kansas has lost his way as a player, and ought reconsider rapidly why this game attracts them because the elaborate game of "stat builder" gets old very fast . . .(I love the system by the way, i just mean that power leveling takes a long while but it has a ceiling, after which many pler types will quit) If you engage the story as well as the mechanics from an early point in your experience with ps you will grow into your character that is a way that is more organic, and might in time be a reasonable candidate for GM.
Presence on forum
This too is a must. It is unfortunate more new characters do not turn to the forums early on in their gaming, and as we have established it can be very intimidating, but a great deal of the meatiest discussion of Planeshift happens here. A GM must be up on that information. The most valuable information in this thread for instance has come from people who meet the criteria listed here. The best way to be informed and involved is to read the forums, and GMs must be informed and involved. I treasure the fact that we are able to have so much direct interaction with the GMs and Devs. All of this discussion started because an uncommon player who again meets all of these criteria, announced the last of their events for the public and there has been an uproar in part to stop it in part to address what caused the Entertainer's reluctance, but in the process we have heard from Both GMs and developers of the game, if that is not being engaged with the player base . . . I don’t know what is. I am glad they use the forum and glad they take the time to be here even if they are not always available in game, getting more good GMs addresses that problem. The forums are also where a great deal of the player hosted role-playing events are posted a GM should know what is going on with the role-playing events and tend to them or foster them when time and opportunity permits.
success of your events
Again this is needed too a GM is expected to host events, experience doing this as a player is absolutely needed for a GM candidate. If you have not hosted a good role-playing event or do not have the capacity to create events GM powers won’t help you to fulfill this aspect of your role in the community. This as well is something that must be done over time. As you build the story around your character and have your directorial ups and downs in the process of making your own rp events player-side, you learn a great deal about the expectations of the community. When you are successful at building one rp event more people will come to the next and so it goes. This process gives a would-be GM character a sense for what will work for the community before they plan their own events with GM options later.
For all of these reasons I am very glad to have Akaye as a GM :) I hope she is given reign to do all she is capable of.
all of this said, and taking Karyuu's invitation to nominate: I nominate Proglin as a GM and suggest (through due process) the official legitimization of his tournaments as a GM event.
I further suggest (and this is radical I know) moving the arena between Oja and Hydlaa (being teleported is OOC and should either, be avoided or have an IC explanation).
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Being on the forum is fine, it's just being on it all the time and never going ingame that's the problem.
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:D Thank you Janner for your vote of confidence, it means alot coming from you. I am glad you understand where I am coming from, and I really am trying to do my best.
@Mirashi: There I am replying with Zorbels so technically, Akaye is off duty. Just so you don't freak out that my Gm character is on the forums. Your biggest mistake in what you are trying to point out is that you assume there is a set time and amount of hours that Gm's should be in game. We do this job because we volunteer for it. It isn't paid and it is people from the game who have been around at least enough to know the ropes.
vol·un·teer (vŏl'ən-tîr')
n.
A person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily: an information booth staffed by volunteers; hospital volunteers.
adj.
Being, consisting of, or done by volunteers: volunteer firefighters; volunteer tutoring.
v.intr.
To perform or offer to perform a service of one's own free will.
To do charitable or helpful work without pay: Many retirees volunteer in community service and day care centers.
volunteer
v
Definition: offer to do something
Antonyms: compel, force, obligate <----- Mirashi you are doing this with how your posts read. This is opposite of volunteer.
There are no set hours. The GM's are free to do as they please. If they want to read the forums and not go into game, there is nothing wrong with that. As I have said before, we are a small team. If we were not so small and there were enough Gm's to balance out the hours of the game so someone was on at all times then there wouldn't be a problem. At this point we don't have the man power. Why is that so hard for you to understand. We Volunteer, we choose to spend time in the game when we would like. Not when the players tell us to do so.
If the GM's accept the role, yet do nothing, it's pointless, and means they probably just wanted GM powers for their own gain, because I fail to see any kind of help to me or my friends.
Now your just making assumtions, and that could lead to stupidity. Why do you think the team is so small now? I will tell you, Talad got rid of all the GM's who were abusing powers and making a bad name for Gm's. So you saying "Oh well you should make it easier for people to become Gm's," well that will just let the Gm's you are complaining about into the system. PLease just give it a rest. You are not the boss of the Gm's but you seem to be acting like you are. I suggest if this stresses you so much then you need to talk with Talad. Send him an email.
{Edit} Xillix Queen of Fools I just read your post. I thought it was well put and thank you as well for your vote of confidence. I appreciate the time you took to wirte that post ... so much that I am really late for work but it was well worth it! so if I get fired, we all know I will have more time to Gm. :P
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Mirashi is somewhat right...I've volunteered at a couple of places (thrift stores, etc.), and we still had to show up on time and had set days to work. We couldn't just walk out in the middle of working, either. I don't see why GMs shouldn't have to have a certain amount of time logged, monthly or whatever...specifics don't really matter to me. Really, if you become a GM that shouldn't be a problem to you as you should be way over the amount that would be required anyways. It's really bad form to volunteer for something you are not willing to do 100%, just like if you were actually being paid.
The attitude that seems to affect almost (note: almost) everyone who comes to any sort of power in Planeshift (dev, moderator, gm) is that of "We're volunteers. And we'll volunteer the way we like, whenever we like. If you don't like that you can go to hell (as long as you don't have more power than me)." Which is NOT the attitude that would work in real life so I don't see why it works here. I'd be thrown out of any number of places if I volunteered and had that attitude, it just doesn't work on any level.
Seriously...go volunteer somewhere else, and then try pulling some of the stuff that happens around here. They aren't going to let it slide. You go missing when you're supposed to be around, you're going to have some pissed off people above you.
Not that I'm saying that is what you're doing zorbels, I'm speaking in general terms of what I have seen/heard from the boards. Though that should be obvious, I thought it would be safer to say that.
[EDIT]
This also goes into the EM/RM thing. Some people are more qualified in other areas that require different amounts of time. Not every GM should be held to the same standard, higher levels have more responsibility and obviously should be around more. If there were RMs they would have more flexible schedules and maybe different requirements such as instead of hours they'd have number of events held, things like that... So maybe some people overseeing the GMs isn't such a bad idea as I originally thought. These would be people who could potentially BE GMs, but don't have the time/personality needed to actually be one. They could keep track of the GM/RM activity and be sure they are doing their jobs and not just logging in and doing nothing.
Remember...just my ideas/opinions.
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Not that I'm saying that is what you're doing zorbels, I'm speaking in general terms of what I have seen/heard from the boards. Though that should be obvious, I thought it would be safer to say that.
I understand what you are saying, and I partly agree. I also see though ... that if there was a Gm team ten times the size, this wouldn't be an issue and everyone one would be a little happier. I guess we will just have to wait and see if Talad is going to have more Gm's to add to the list. Taking out frustration on the Gm's isn't going to make things change but only create debates and hard feelings. This is something I am trying to avoid and I am pleading on the Gm's behalf for the players to just be a little more understanding.
/me crosses her fingers in hopes there will be more Gm's to the team
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taking Karyuu's invitation to nominate: I nominate Proglin as a GM and suggest (through due process) the official legitimization of his tournaments as a GM event.
I would like to second Xillix's nomination of Proglin as a GM.
I feel more GMs are needed, and they need to be accountable for a set number of hours per week in game. As Kiern just pointed out, all volenteers still have to do what they are told, and spend the time they are schedualde for doing thier tasks.
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The attitude that seems to affect almost (note: almost) everyone who comes to any sort of power in Planeshift (dev, moderator, gm) is that of "We're volunteers. And we'll volunteer the way we like, whenever we like. If you don't like that you can go to hell (as long as you don't have more power then me)." Which is NOT the attitude that would work in real life so I don't see why it works here. I'd be thrown out of any number of places if I volunteered and had that attitude, it just doesn't work on any level.
Very true
I agree with Mirashi on that GMs should take their responsibilities seriously if they take the positions. As said it is THEIR choice to become one and you know what it means when you join. Yes if unexpected things happen short periods of not being able to do your job is normal, but if it's for a long time you should step down and seeing this isn't happening right now should be forced to step down.
In the end the one thing that can kill a good team is people slacking of. Not only does it mean part of the job isn't done, but it also frustrates the people on the team that do do their jobs. That see the problems and mention them and are ignored.
Problem also is that the GMs reading this will probably be the ones that really are doing their job. That still atleast partly care. They know there are problems aswell mostlikely, but I know they'll be having defencive feelings about the team aswell.
So inactive GMs make a a several sided problem.
First of the job isn't done.
Second the active GMS get overworked and annoyed.
Third the players get annoyed sometimes when the job is not done.
Fourth the active GMs get annoyed of the complaining of the players after being overworked already and don't feel apreciated and start becoming inactive aswell.
Not to mention the damage in trust you can get on the commmunity side when the players are starting to feel ignored. How are you going to find good new GMs if everyone is starting to feel the higher ups wont let you do your job when you accept it? The people who would like that kind of frustration would probably be the kind of people you don't want to be as a GM and why the new rules were felt needed in the first place.
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Well, we all would like to have GMs more active, but they are busy, have lifes, the usual and still true stuff you heard some times now.......
You may become angry at them for not helping you when you want them to, or be present as much as you (and they themselves) want to see them.
But please take your time and see it this way:
You can take away GM powers from those who have shown to be trustworthy, but then later have or take less time for GMing.
This person then can not help with GM powers anymore, even if they occasionally have the time. They then sit there, thinking "if there was not this stupid rule about regular activity, i could help some hours each of the next few days"
Or you can leave them rather idle, but with their GM powers stored somewhere, if they have not completely quit Planeshift. I guess every, or at least most GMs find it more exciting (or however you want to call it) in the beginning to have some new opportunities to make the game better, and later it might become more like routine to them, and therefore can cause boredom. (This seems quite natural to me, and GMs also still are humans. Try thinking how it would be for you to be moderating all the time, and then even without getting anything for it) But this person still does SOMETHING from time to time, so there is a contribution to the community/game, even if it is not as much as one would wish. That is still better than the nothing they can do if they loose GM powers because of a rule about regular activity or something like that.
Edit:
So inactive GMs make a a several sided problem.
First of the job isn't done.
Second the active GMS get overworked and annoyed.
Third the players get annoyed sometimes when the job is not done.
Fourth the active GMs get annoyed of the complaining of the players after being overworked already and don't feel apreciated and start becoming inactive aswell.
Not the inactive GMs cause this, but the lack of active GMs, which would still be the same if the inactive GMs just were not there. So getting angry at the inactive GMs does not help. If you kick the inactive ones out of the GM team, the problems won't solve any faster.
Mirashi is somewhat right...I've volunteered at a couple of places (thrift stores, etc.), and we still had to show up on time and had set days to work. We couldn't just walk out in the middle of working, either. I don't see why GMs shouldn't have to have a certain amount of time logged, monthly or whatever...specifics don't really matter to me. Really, if you become a GM that shouldn't be a problem to you as you should be way over the amount that would be required anyways. It's really bad form to volunteer for something you are not willing to do 100%, just like if you were actually being paid.
The attitude that seems to affect almost (note: almost) everyone who comes to any sort of power in Planeshift (dev, moderator, gm) is that of "We're volunteers. And we'll volunteer the way we like, whenever we like. If you don't like that you can go to hell (as long as you don't have more power than me)." Which is NOT the attitude that would work in real life so I don't see why it works here. I'd be thrown out of any number of places if I volunteered and had that attitude, it just doesn't work on any level.
Again the question is: Is it better to have them do few, or fire them so nothing at all happens?
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But please take your time and see it this way:
You can take away GM powers from those who have shown to be trustworthy, but then later have or take less time for GMing.
This person then can not help with GM powers anymore, even if they occasionally have the time. They then sit there, thinking "if there was not this stupid rule about regular activity, i could help some hours each of the next few days"
That is still better than the nothing they can do if they loose GM powers because of a rule about regular activity or something like that.
I see your point, this was actually what I was going to post before I thought more about it. The thing is, there needs to be SOME form of "punishment" or something for slacking on the job. Otherwise, there's absolutely NO reason for people to keep at it other than the goodness of their hearts. Which doesn't last long in that line of work. If there's no threat of being kicked off the team hanging over people's heads (besides from bad behavior, misusing power, we're talking about inactivity here), they are understandably going to do less work. It doesn't have to be a bad thing, either. Motivation is key. There needs to be a reason for people to go about doing the thing they volunteered to do. If there's a better and quicker way to motivate people then potentially losing their job, I honestly would like to hear it.
Even at a paid job, if you weren't worried about keeping your job you would do much, much less actual work.
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I agree if you don't set a standard of a minimum I feel that the team slowly degrades and as said a GM on a minimum would be iffy already. You might be able to close your eye if something like that happens once or twice but when half the team starts to become inactive....
Inactivity is contagious if you are not carefull and so I stick with my point that there should be a minimum of what a GM should be doing. If a GM goes below that line he should be demoted and if things wont turn better perhaps even dispelled
The title is the only thing a GM gets from this all and he should be able to be proud of that title.
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The difference between here and in a shop in RL, is that we lose nothing by keeping on GMs/devs/etc. who aren't so active. If you work in a charity as a volunteer, then people are depending on you doing your part for other people to do theirs. We are pretty independant, so kicking someone out for not GMing/deving 3 hours a day every day is just shooting ourselves in the foot.
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Well I've never even heard of Frostmorn or Syilph, on the forums or ingame. Maybe it isn't best to remove them, but it'd be nice to get some more GM's who are actually active ingame, instead of just 10 minutes a day.
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Actually, I've seen Syliph(sp?) ingame a lot, just not lately.... he used to be on all the time though.
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The difference between here and in a shop in RL, is that we lose nothing by keeping on GMs/devs/etc. who aren't so active. If you work in a charity as a volunteer, then people are depending on you doing your part for other people to do theirs. We are pretty independant, so kicking someone out for not GMing/deving 3 hours a day every day is just shooting ourselves in the foot.
All well and good if you completely ignore the point I just made. You do lose something if you keep the inactives, that was the entire point of my last post (as well as Pestilance's). 3 hours a day every day is extremely unrealistic, and it doesn't serve you well to exaggerate on that issue. Like I said, it really shouldn't be an issue for MOST GMs, but there needs to be something there...just for when that person starts to lose interest, having that minimum there will give them motivation to continue on doing what they volunteered to do in the first place.
The thing is, this IS real life. We're not talking about roleplaying here, we're talking about running a game. Not playing the game, running the game. Anything you volunteer for expects something from you (charity or not, ever volunteered for a school program or something like that?). Planeshift is the only one I see where you don't even have to do the thing you volunteered for and all that happens is the people you told that you'd actually do something just shrugs it off.
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summer slump.. summer slump.. I think I know where that expression comes from.. People who are so bored that they search for stuff to complain about for the sake of complaining.
Mirashi, why are you so active on the forums? Don't you have better things to do than posting flames against people you don't even know?
Don't you have some RP to play out and actually enjoy the game instead of complaining about GMs being inactive while people don't need them in 99% of the time?
What will you say if you have no chance of checking whether GMs are online or not?
There has been a long discussion about complete invisibility for GMs, making it impossible to see whether they are online.. I had some reservations against that, but with all that, more or less stupid and unbacked complaining, I really vote for that. Only to get rid of people who think they can control GMs, measure their ingame time in relation to their forum time or RL time and best, to kick them just for the sake of doing anything, no matter what.
Actionism this is called. And actionism is what produces the stupidest and worst decisions in RL politics.
Btw, we GMs also have means to check petitions outside of the game. We also have IRC to call for us in emergencies. We don't need to be ingame
to be available.
And believe it or not, GMs get booted if they are inactive for too long. But that doesn't happen because some people who have no idea on the people in the GM team think that it's time to kick all GMs. I find it kind of immature to ask for Akaye to not become GM only because she has other things to do. Do me a favour! Find somebody over 18 who knows the player base (relationship skills), has been around for long enough (game knowledge), has experience in RP (not necessary for the simple GM jobs, but that's what we need for event planning), is fluent in english, can get along with the team mates(YES! Favouritism pure! Without getting along you can screw the whole GM team, wonderful!) AND has 24/7 time for GMing.
Actually all requirements aside from the ironical 24/7 time are those that a person must have to fit into the job. Oh, and one should be able to know when something is enough.
/me goes off to do something for PS that is NOT GMing
PS:
:offtopic:
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I still see that we lose nothing. As long as we recruit new people every so often and there are GMs actually ingame, there's no reason for us to give a kick up the rear to the current GMs who have a good reason for being inactive. If they're not doing _anything at all_ then I agree there's no reason to keep them around.
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Motivation is key.
I fully agree.
Even at a paid job, if you weren't worried about keeping your job you would do much, much less actual work.
But this has something to do with the fact that you have to earn money for your life. I don't know how many donations there have been, or how they are handled, but i don't think they make much of the motivation for GMs at the moment.
What we need now, are more concrete suggestions for the motivation, let's start here:I've volunteered at a couple of places (thrift stores, etc.), and we still had to show up on time and had set days to work. We couldn't just walk out in the middle of working, either.
I'd be thrown out of any number of places if I volunteered and had that attitude, it just doesn't work on any level.
From what i can see in that post, your motivation was, that you could loose that job. Your motivation not to want this, was probably (i am assuming and generalizing here, correct me if it needs to be), that your goodness in heart and the experiences you have in your job are still good enough motivation for you to want to keep that job, which is the same as we have for GMs now.
Furthermore i am assuming that your volunteer jobs were only for some time, perhaps even set before you accepted the job. The knowledge that this time - that you start experiencing as worth your time - will end at some point, probably makes the feeling that you want to enjoy the job as much as possible even stronger.
A GM (as far as i can see) is given his/her rights "forever" (he/she is not engaged for a limited period of time), so this effect does not arise here. This means that the GM here is in higher danger to loose interest in his job than you were, and probably your jobs were usually over before you came to the point where the boredom/stress/whatever of your job would be greater than your motivation mentioned above.
So this is where we are by now, and now my question to you is: Was there any other motivation for you to do your job? If there was one that could in any way apply to the GMs, please tell it, because that would be what we are all looking for: a concrete solution for the problem.
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So this is where we are by now, and now my question to you is: Was there any other motivation for you to do your job? If there was one that could in any way apply to the GMs, please tell it, because that would be what we are all looking for: a concrete solution for the problem.
Some very good points. What exactly was it that made me want to keep my job? Hard to say, but it has to do with reasons why you volunteer in the first place. I want to help out, so I volunteer. To be able to help out I have to keep my job and to keep my job I have to put in a certain amount of acceptable work, like you said.
So I guess the answer has to come from GMs. What exactly motivated them in the first place to volunteer? To help? Just for the position? That's the only reasons I can come up with. If it's to help, then there is only a problem when this person tires of helping. Then the solution would be to take a (short) break and decide later if you're willing to come back fully. For the position? Then it's back to what I said, fear of losing that position. Maybe not by having a minimum number of hours logged, there are other ways to go about that, and I regret bringing that up because people will focus on that rather than the big picture. Maybe after a certain time the GM comes up for review and they have to meet with Talad or someone again. I don't know, that's just specific ideas and I'd much rather focus on the actual issue.
Unfortunately we can't figure out exactly why each individual GM volunteered, so you'd have to come up with motivation that encompassed them all. The only thing I can think of is fear of getting kicked out, that is my solution (take it or leave it) that I believe would in fact be concrete but we can't know that. If I could think of anything else I would, but I'm not a GM and don't want to be one (for the reason that I would NOT be able to give 100%, not because I wouldn't want the responsibility) so my perspective is different.
Sadly though, from Kerol's and Xordan's (and now Tarel's) posts it seems they're not interested in figuring this out and instead fixated on being defensive. I was hoping to get some interesting points from them but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. Obviously proper motivation is a big problem...and if they disagree with that there's really nothing that can be done, as it can only be solved by them. Oh well, I guess I'll have to hope Karyuu comes by some time and give her perspective since it's usually useful.
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I still see that we lose nothing. As long as we recruit new people every so often and there are GMs actually ingame, there's no reason for us to give a kick up the rear to the current GMs who have a good reason for being inactive. If they're not doing _anything at all_ then I agree there's no reason to keep them around.
I still say calling them up on their phone and asking them what's up solves all these problems.
Communication is the key you're all looking for!
Just call up the inactive ones and ask what's up, if they have a good reason, keep um, if not, then do what you feel is best.
Time zones mean nothing, just call late night, or early morning, whenever it's day for their time zone.
It's not like Gm's don't stay up late, so while your awake at 2 in the morning, go and call the inactive ones.
Again, Communication is the key!
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In RL I am member of a club. This club is divided between the seniors who play mondays and the juniors who play fridays. I myself play Mondays as I am well above 18 but have been helping at the juniors for well must be 7 years now teaching them the ropes I would like to think. I also even tought at schools for a while and might do this again after summervacation.
This was all volunteer work and I can tell you, you can not just say "hey I'm not feeling like it today". Ofcourse there are days that you are more motivated then others, but you have to remind yourself that it is your own choice.
Being a GM is the same in my eyes. You know it will eat a lot of your time from the get go. But you also know you are privilidged to be allowed to do it. You are trusted with the responsibilities. If you no longer feel you are able to do this one of those responsibilities in my eyes would also be stepping down on your own accord before someone needs to kick you out.
Now 3 hours a day was mentioned and ofcourse this is ridiculous as a minimum, but I do feel something like 1/hour a day avarage over a monthstime isn't to much to ask.
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Well I'm sure that Tarel and Kerol would know the rules by now, but I still fail to see them ingame. And when they are, they're afk.
Well I've never even heard of Frostmorn or Syilph, on the forums or ingame. Maybe it isn't best to remove them, but it'd be nice to get some more GM's who are actually active ingame, instead of just 10 minutes a day.
I personally feel very offended by you, Mirashi.
I am very dedicated to Planeshift and when i am ingame, i am never afk.
I dedicate all my spare time to Planeshift.
As far as i know, i am a Game Master, who is spending most time ingame as Game Master.
When you think i am always afk, then think again.
It shows that you lack in you're knowledge
and you don't know me at all and can't judge upon me at all.
I have very much players asking help from me all the time and are
willing to wait some time, till i have time to answer them.
And maybe an update on you're petitions.
You are not the only one who makes petitions and the
Game Master have to deal with the urgent petitions first.
Also a lot of players are using the petition system as wish place or sent other crap to it.
I also contributed all my time to the crafting system.
Without my contribution, you would still not be able to craft shields and weapons.
And furthermore, my task is with the "police force" of Planeshift, because i am low ranked.
So i am dealing with players breaking the rules too.
I am a Game Master level 2, if i may update you on that.
I have days of 6 hours that i am online. is that is not enough for you?
And besides that i try to be online 7 days a week, when i am not working.
I dedicate at least 12 hours a week to be ingame as Game Master.
And now before you start flaming me, for me posting in the forums,
i can tell you, that i can't be ingame now, simply because i am working at this very moment.
it has got nothing to do with not wanting to be ingame.
Syilph and Frostmorn are very dedicated GM's too, just like Kerol.
I don't like to see flaming at them, when they are not posting in here.
If you have not seen them ingame it can either mean, that you just are not looking well enough or you are simply not online, when they are.
All the current GM's are active, but don't forget that all GM's can be online at anytime.
Maybe that's because the clock has got 24 hour's a day and everyone has got an own real life
and work to do.
for example i am a fulltime male nurse and work different shifts, so i am random times ingame.
And also the higher rank you have in the Game Masters, the more responsibility you have
in Planeshift.
There is a lot of paper work to do, most of the time too.
And i don't understand why you are complaining at all.
No Developer or Game Master ever gets paid for they time they contribute to Planeshift.
And the players don't pay for playing this pre alpha game too.
Everyone should be happy, that the developers and Talad choose to share this game with
everyone, while they are still developing it.
You can better play ingame, then waste all you're time in the forums flaming at the GM-group.
The Game Masters are working as hard as they can, to help as much players as possible.
You don't know half of what the GM's are doing ingame and in IRC.
I know that we can't please everyone.
That is a simple fact in every game.
People who dislike the GM-team will come and go all the time and that will never change.
When you say, whe should be ingame always and not in IRC, it would mean,
that you will never get GM-events.
The GM-team is very busy at this moment with creating events for the
coming period and need IRC to discuss things.
Also if a Game Master created an event, it still needs to be approved by Talad.
Without the approval of Talad, the GM-event is not allowed and won't come ingame.
Writing GM-events and get approval takes time, specially for the bigger events.
I am tired of this whole discussion and can tell you,
that i won't participate in this discussion anymore too,
because i don't support it.
It looks like you want babysitters, that you can control and dismiss
whenever you as player wish it.
But i can tell you that this will never happen.
This discussion will not change the GM-team, simply because you want it.
Talad is the Big Boss in here and he deals with the GM's and not any player.
If Talad thinks that things needs to be changed, then it will happen.
Not sooner or later.
Players can say things, but Talad has got the final word in everything that concerns Planeshift.
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hmm have to add to this that Tarel in my opinion is not a problem GM so to speak.
Haven't seen him much these last weeks but for more then a month before that I have seen him ingame almost everytime I was. Seeing him online when I came on and seeing him still online when I left three hours later or leaving just before me.
I know for a fact his avarage of those days must be enormous and that I don't see him now may just be becuase he is online at different times becuase of work or becuase he has vacation now.
Tarel in no way is an inactive GM.
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(http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6644/dlj4.gif)
Must keep up with posts. Must keep up. Okay. One step at a time, sorry in advance for the length.
Mirashi: moderaters should stay on the forums, GM's should stay ingame.
What of those who are both? ;) Anyway, please remember that GMs too need to keep in touch with the community, and I often hound Kerol to keep up with some thread here or there because it will be of interest to the GM team. We can't just stick to the game, because the forums are part of it as well. And we can't often be in-game and check the forums at the same time, so we come by whenever we have a few minutes that would be too short to spend in-game for something useful, and read up. Is that a crime? Does that mean the GMs reading the forums are slacking off? No way. I think they too have every right to read on what everyone else thinks of them and what suggestions they are making that would influence their jobs. Besides, a GM may not always have access to PS - repeating my example, I'm away at Lake Tahoe. Thus the forums are my only connection for this week. How would you know what else may be going on with a GM unless they're around here to tell you, so that you avoid making further "slacking off" assumptions.
What do people think is a decent "extended time of inactivity" before a GM should get booted? Should there be exceptions for computer problems, life events? Would a GM have to reapply all over again afterwards? Laragorn suggested they "be accountable for a set number of hours per week in game," but nooo thanks. Weeks change, and unless these very frequent things get taken into account, this will hurt the team more than weed out the problems. That's a bit too frequent of a counter for my taste. And again, what happens if something comes up? Bam, computer blew apart without a warning - you try to get a word in, but then find that through no fault of your own you have been striped of your ability to help.
For those who brought them up:
Tarel is very hardworking. He tries as much as he can to be around and help out with anything he can. Frostmorn has had computer problems, and Syilph is on vacation.
Don't treat all GMs as one if you are going to go on a "lazy" rant. That's completely unfair, and you come off as very rude even if you don't want to sound that way. I agree that there are a few GMs that I would definitely like to see around more that can be around, but the majority of us are not around because we have some things keeping us back at this time. To attribute our lack of presence to lazyness only makes me want to bite people (http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/8069/ohshitalionpv5.gif)
About GMs and petitions: sometimes we leave them open so that other GMs can come in and take a look as well, and perhaps because other GMs will be better suited to take care of the problem. I don't know what petitions were made that have been brought up here, but they're not always closed, and sometimes we only have so much time to spend in PS and we have to prioritise between helping someone report a really bad bug or /teleporting someone out of a stuck area. We don't always have hours to spend weeding through everything, though we try to make time for as much as we can.
Xillix: excellent post, I'm going to be saving that one away (http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/5710/pleasedwq9.gif) And thanks for that nomination. Now the question is, would Proglin accept it? He'd have my "vote" for sure.
Kiern: What exactly motivated them in the first place to volunteer?
I can't speak for everyone, but it's probably true for everyone more than it isn't: to help players in trouble, and to run events. That's my motivation to stick around still. If someone's having a problem and I call help out, I am filled with glee.
Maybe after a certain time the GM comes up for review and they have to meet with Talad or someone again.
Focusing on the smaller picture just for a bit, I wouldn't mind personal progress reports from time to time. I'm sure that being asked a direct "What have you done in all this time?" can quickly point out problems. It can be tough on low-level GMs because they can only do so much, but here's their chance to prove themselves ready to move up as well.
I think the problem is that some people just lose interest, and there's really no motivation to speak of. When a volunteer job becomes a chore, it's time to let it go either temporarily or permanently. It feels like some people just have a withered grip on their jobs and I can't pinpoint any fears of losing it for that minority. But this is something that we have to talk about internally, as it's not going to get solved on these public boards. Just reaching those inactive GMs to tell them what's up will be problematic.
Datruth: I still say calling them up on their phone and asking them what's up solves all these problems.
We live all over the world, again. Calling can be expensive. And besides, some GMs are away from their permanent residences on summer vacations.
So a kind of quick summary, because after reading all these posts and trying to reply, I'm losing track of things:
We do have inactive GMs. Inactive in the sense that they probably can be around, but aren't for unknown reasons (meaning, nothing big is keeping them away such as vacations that we know of). They are the 0.1% of the team. The others are simply, sadly busy. This has been a sort of wake-up call, and I think I can speak for all of us when I say that we'll try to be around even more. Give us a bit of time before major changes are seen, however. You're not going to see 4 GMs log on tomorrow, nor our numbers decrease/increase within the week.
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It just seems to me they're never online when I need them, like yesterday when my friend was stuck. I crashed a few minutes later and I found about 3 GM's on the forums, but none ingame. You say there are a lot of active GM's, but not very active ingame, the way I see it. It's a responsibility, like I was saying before, and maybe you are needed on IRC, but the forums are more for Karyuu and Santiago, not the game masters. I'm probably offending a lot of people in some way, but we need people ingame, not on the forums. There's so many things I see all the time that happen ingame where GM's are needed, but none are there. It would be simple if you could go ingame along with the forums and IRC. But only going ingame for about 5 minutes then spending hours on the forums, it's like you're ignoring your job.
And like I said, it's voluntary, but it's a job, and if you did this, and it was a paying job, you would certainly be fired. These are things that come with being a GM: responsibility, getting asked to do a lot of things, helping people, submitting bugs, running events (for a certain few), and a few other things I can't remember at the moment. But in no way do the forums relate to any of these, except maybe helping people, but any active forum member can do that too. You GM's have more powers than normal players. If someone's totally stuck and can't move, where's the GM to help them? If someone needs a name change ingame, where's the GM? Sure there's petitions, but it takes days (and don't dare tell me different, it took 3 days for my petitions to finally be read, so just don't bother giving me any crap about that) for these petitions to be checked, because chances are a GM's more busy on the forums than ingame. If you want to volunteer for forum moderator or something, than do that. Karyuu does her job well, she stays on the forums a lot and keeps the idiots at bay, and helps people who ask questions here. But this isn't a GM's jurisdiction.
Like I said a lot of posts before, I know GM's are people too, and they have to do things in real life a lot, but if you can't go ingame at all to do what you volunteered for, you should lay down your role, because you're not exactly doing your job. Sure, you don't get paid for it or rewarded in any way, but I don't know your reasons for becoming GM's, but once you take on the role, you need to help people out, because there are ALWAYS people who need it. Every time I need help, I'll check the /who game list, and no one's ever online. Same with a lot of other people as well. Now I'm being hounded by all the GM's, but as a player and tester, I'm doing my job, submitting bugs when I see them, and roleplaying when I feel like it. It's a GM's job to help others ingame, and all that crap I said above, but it's not being done in good time. Now, I didn't know about Frostmorn and Syilph, and I won't point any of this at them. But, Tarel and Kerol, I see you guys on the forums so much more than I see you ingame. Kerol, I saw you ingame maybe 15 minutes today, which really isn't enough. And Tarel, I was gone a while today, but I don't believe you've been online at all today. Since Syilph and Frostmorn can't get ingame or do anything at all for RL reasons, they aren't blamed. But you two can get on the forums, so it's just as easy to get in game. Yet, you won't, and if you do you'll normally go afk inside, or stay for a few minutes then leave shortly after.
And Tarel, if you weren't afk, you were clearly ignoring me. Now, the first time around when I asked you for something, and after about 10 minutes after I asked, you did it, then quickly left again when I said something else. A while later you logged out without answering me. Just like I said before: You make up a bunch of bullcrap about being online and helping others and things, but really all you do is stay on the forums trying to defends yourselves with lies, saying things you SHOULD be doing, but aren't REALLY doing. If you're going to say you're an active GM who helps others and is dedicated to PlaneShift, then show me, don't just talk on about it. People need your help, and are being ignored. Now sure, you guys will be online sometimes, but once in a rare while do I actually see more GM's ingame than I do on the forums. In fact, I never do, maybe 1 out of 4 on the forums - if even that - will be ingame at that time. And the funny thing is, when you, Kerol, Uyaem, and some other GM were on the forums, Noxide was ingame, and he didn't come to the forums and do what you're doing now, he actually read my petitions and did some other things that were long overdue. Now why can't you guys do that? It'd really help the community, instead of sitting here on the forums having to defend yourselves with what Noxide or any other active GM's doing, but not you yourselves.
Now I suppose you'll try to say something in defense, but once again not do anything ingame. I'm NOT going to repeat myself. If you're going to say crap, you need to do crap, otherwise you don't deserve to be a GM. Take some responsibility for God's sakes.
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Mirashi, you are repeating yourself as if you haven't read my post at all.
You have made the points you have wanted to make. This repetition and accusations that are approaching real flames, are not wanted.
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I'm aware of that, and I was concerned with off-topic posts before, but it's been brought to my attention (and since this has already gone seriously off-topic beyond my control, I might as well post my observations here) that the community would be so better off if people just did their jobs. I skimmed through your post, but now I'll read the full thing.
*Goes off to read.
Edit: Alright, I read. But, none of what you said changes the point I'm trying to make. I did count Frostmorn and Syilph out of this, since they can't get ingame at all. But Tarel and Kerol can go ingame, yet they refuse to, and spend more time on the forums where they're not really needed (since one: It's your job, and you do it well, Karyuu. And two: people don't get stuck in the coding on forums and frozen to where they need teleported).
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No, you still haven't read anything I posted.
People sometimes don't have the time or ability to log in-game, so they check the forums. Moreover, where did you see anything about Tarel or Kerol refusing to go in-game? That is just making things up to make them look bad, and I would appreciate it if you cool off and stop posting as if to offend people. If you want to contact Tarel or Kerol directly to discuss their GMing schedules, you are most free to. However, I definitely don't like this posting manner of yours.
Now I'm not denying it that more active GMs are necessary. But we're trying to be calm about how we're posting, and not aggravate people. You're not doing a very good job at this time.
*edited to add*
Have we forgotten about the /die command? Yes, it's an inconvenience, but it's here for testing purposes and just such scenarios when you're stuck and a GM is not available. This is similar to people dragging GMs into their personal in-game arguments when a simple /ignore would do the job. If you have commands to help you, it is lazy to want to wait for a GM to make things easier for you.
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I know, I am probably ticking off a lot of GM's. But, I know a lot of people ingame who help out a lot, and are active ingame. Janner, Easton, Constrabus, Proglin? Any of them have my vote for GM, and I believe they would do a very good job at it. They're active and very helpful.
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The only thing most of those would have to do is just apply. The key is, do they want to.
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One little note I'd like make here. For me, I spend so much time on the forums rather than ingame simply becuase of my full time job. I can be logged into the forums while at work, and when it is slow, I have a chance to read and respond, much like I am doing right now. Now, it's not possible for me to be in game right now, simply becuase "no games at work".
This type of reasoning holds true for many other people. They are able to check the forums, but unable to be in game.
As for the cries for more GMs, it takes time. Lady Z, I know for a fact, applied to be GM litterly many months ago. It wasn't until this last weekend when everyone's schedules matched up, that she was able to get her talk with the big man himself. Things take time. Moving just to move is a waste of energy. This thread has been a key point, a wake up call if you will, it shows that there are concerns and things have been suggested to rectify things, but change isn't going to be able to happen over night. Its going to take many more discussions before the movement of change starts rolling. But that is how PS operates. It's been in developement for years and years, pace of developement isn't as fast as other games, but then PS isn't like other games.
It's good to point out issues to bring it to peoples attention, but also as a duty of every player, they should try to do as much for thier fellow players as they can, with out having to get the GM's involved. And as a little personal note, I myself have thought about applying for the team many times over, but I'm just not sure. I'm willing to bet many of the other players have the same line of thinking.
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And Tarel, if you weren't afk, you were clearly ignoring me. Now, the first time around when I asked you for something, and after about 10 minutes after I asked, you did it, then quickly left again when I said something else. A while later you logged out without answering me. Just like I said before: You make up a bunch of bullcrap about being online and helping others and things, but really all you do is stay on the forums trying to defends yourselves with lies, saying things you SHOULD be doing, but aren't REALLY doing. If you're going to say you're an active GM who helps others and is dedicated to PlaneShift, then show me, don't just talk on about it. People need your help, and are being ignored. Now sure, you guys will be online sometimes, but once in a rare while do I actually see more GM's ingame than I do on the forums. In fact, I never do, maybe 1 out of 4 on the forums - if even that - will be ingame at that time. And the funny thing is, when you, Kerol, Uyaem, and some other GM were on the forums, Noxide was ingame, and he didn't come to the forums and do what you're doing now, he actually read my petitions and did some other things that were long overdue. Now why can't you guys do that? It'd really help the community, instead of sitting here on the forums having to defend yourselves with what Noxide or any other active GM's doing, but not you yourselves.
I see you are clearly ignoring my post and you are not the only one talking to me ingame.
I don't ignore anyone.
If i wished to ignore you, then i would place you in my ignorelist ingame, which
won't happen.
And logging out because you ask something, is not true too.
You should know how much my client crashed because of bugs.
I am not standing in one place, to answer players, but move around and do my work.
and to repeat myself: I AM WORKING AT THIS MOMENT !!!
My work forbids the use of Planeshift on the computers, so can't be ingame.
You are clearly only seeking for fuel, to start flaming more.
And you need to have some glasses, i think.
I was online for 5 hours today (started 15 hours ago) together with Noxide.
You can ask him, if you don't believe it.
In my opinion you are making up things, to fit it to you're flames against me and the GM-team.
You should show more respect to the Game Masters, then you are doing now.
I was about to start comparing you with another person, who is well known for flaming
at the GM-team, to get his statisfaction, but fails in any attempt.
All loose accusations with no backup in any kind.
The only reason behind the whole arguements is, that the GM-team has not run events for a long time.
I can tell you, that you will get you're events in the near future.
The GM-team is busy with creating a lot of events, that can be run in the near future.
So to end my post:
I can't use Planeshift on the PC at work and i should not be playing PS, while working too,
because i am a Male Nurse.
But i can visit the forums, while working.
At home it's totally opposite.
I care less about the forums and only visit stupid arguements like this one has become.
I am only ingame at home and sometimes in IRC, when i think it's needed.
It looks like you want babysitters, that you can control and dismiss
whenever you as player wish it.
But i can tell you that this will never happen.
This discussion will not change the GM-team, simply because you want it.
Talad is the Big Boss in here and he deals with the GM's and not any player.
If Talad thinks that things needs to be changed, then it will happen.
Not sooner or later.
Players can say things, but Talad has got the final word in everything that concerns Planeshift.
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Alright, you're at work, you couldn't get on. That's all I needed to know. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Just, when I see people on the forums, I normally think they have time to go ingame, too. But now I see it's that they don't have the right computer to go ingame. Especially since you're a nurse, I doubt you'd be allowed to be playing games.
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Let us see our GM friends again.
i'm a bit confused, didn't you say somewhere earlier that gm's were good at ruining it?
Is this a change in opinions for you, then i'm glad you had it :)
I have been critical of things that harm the game, and support anything that might help.
My arguments have been with harmful changes, broken or unnecessary rules, and excessive enforcement of them.
Many things have been done in the name of fairness, or setting, or support of RP, that have done far more harm than good.
I speak out, because you cannot fix problems, if you don't know they exist, or worse, deny them.
And when GMs went invisible, it was pretty obvious what would come of that, too.
But I have always been a friend to the people serving us as GMs, have been close to many, and some have asked me for advice on occasion.
It's a tough job, made even more difficult by bad or broken rules, misconceptions,, misunderstandings, and in the case of certain individuals, actions ranging from harassment of players for the fun of it, to outright sabotage.
You might not know it, but Karyuu and I have been friendly since last December.
And if desire and dedication were all it took, Karyuu might already have finished PS by herself. :)
I speak bluntly, and trust that my relationship with those I love, will survive the honesty.
I hope that when she cools off, Karyuu will find it in her heart to forgive me for that.
~Verrliit~
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All is well :) However, I have not spoken to you at all since December - that's more than half a year ago. Since there has been no contact outside of public posts here and some very recent PMs, I wouldn't exactly smile and nod to that.
*edit*
Ah! I remember, we've exchanged a few words while I was GMing. Anyway, that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Criticism is all nice and well, but it can quickly turn very ugly if it isn't posted in a manner people are not going to find offensive. So a few tips for everyone posting: don't exaggerate, and don't assume.
*edited to reply to Datruth*
I don't always have the time to read stories, and yours is long! :) I'll try to find the time soon.
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All is well :) However, I have not spoken to you at all since December - that's more than half a year ago. Since there has been no contact outside of public posts here and some very recent PMs, I wouldn't exactly smile and nod to that.
Still waiting for your replies lol , by the way, to my pms.
He won't talk to you much but atleast he gets a reply right, lol i talk alot and i get no reply lol.
I have a feeling that reply is coming awefully quickly now lol.
Hope you liked the story :)
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Thank you Karyuu, i hope what i posted stopped a cross-section of the argumentation, which i assume it has since no one seems to be taking issue with it.
Mirashi I can respect your concerns but i think the tone of your posts is incindiary to a degree, I have had hours of in game interaction with kerol and Tarel has been there for me when Kerol was not . . . and hadfael has been there to tell me when i was screwing up. As Bakuun is concerned i would rather have that particular gm/dev doing dev work now ;).
The gms are present but with the current size of the team it is hard for them. A great deal of this argument could be settled by simply adding more gms. I hope proglin will consider the nomination, I would not want to lose him as a player but i feel his tournaments would be a testament to the commitment of the gm team to host events if he were added. All those meantioned by name have my respect so gm team, consider adding them and if your name was meantioned consider applying. The game is young and many of its harshest critics are much much too demmanding relative to their contributions to the game.
I think one thing is absolutely clear here and that some gms agree, the team's size should be increased (only with rock solid people). Everyone now on the team has earned their place. I would encourage granting infinite patience if life concerns intterupt their capacity to teleport folks out of trouble etc. There are many ways this role is completely unlike a volunteer position in the real world. Even volunteering has a kind of pay, one can put it on a resume a college application etc. Our Gms get only the respect of the community in return, and if that is lacking WTF {can i say that?} are they doing it for at all?
Love of the game or love of the flames?
If anyone is having a real issue try this:
Irc . . .
#planeshift-gmtalk
I have never had an issue that was not resolved in short order due in part to tracking the gms down through the provided methods{that is a lie i once had my name changed by a gm without being spoken toit was late at night in my time zone, the next day it was changed to the new name i wanted, gosh what a poor response . . .I HAD TO WAIT A WHOLE DAY!!![snark] (it was more like a few hours) }.
Here is a point, if you see them on forums send them a pm, then if they cannot fix it [because they are a nurse . . .or even more interested in smoking crack at that moment, (what business is that of one players?)] they having more connectivity than a new player might be able to have the issue adressed by one of their peers . . .
I hope all of this is taken in stride I mean no offence to anyone's valid arguments . . .I return to my caution about the TONE of posts, things devolve rapidly when the tone decends into flames. I have seen a sincere effort to lift this thread from those depths again and again and the part of gms devs and some players. Using UTM as an example, once he beat himself with constructive stick the thread got better for a while . . .but gravity has its way with us all . . . learn to fly.
[off topic i never thought i would say this but i truly miss zanzibar]
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All is well :) However, I have not spoken to you at all since December - that's more than half a year ago. Since there has been no contact outside of public posts here and some very recent PMs, I wouldn't exactly smile and nod to that.
*edit*
Ah! I remember, we've exchanged a few words while I was GMing.
And at a couple of weddings, another event or two, and IRC as well.
Then I was out with viral pneumonia for a couple of months...
Honey, I have gone through a whole box of tissues in the course of this thread.
You have no idea how much it hurt.
Thank you for valuing me more than the argument, after all.
Being gracious looks really good on you, by the way. :)
~Verrliit~
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Honey, I have gone through a whole box of tissues in the course of this thread.
Maybe you should take a time-out :) Getting that emotional over this doesn't sound too healthy.
PS: Please check your PM inbox.
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Honey, I have gone through a whole box of tissues in the course of this thread.
Maybe you should take a time-out :) Getting that emotional over this doesn't sound too healthy.
I was that emotional over you, Karyuu.
I hate losing a friend, very much.
And only people I care about can hurt me.
~Verrliit~
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From Karyuu
The only thing most of those would have to do is just apply. The key is, do they want to.
Ref being a GM was a post somewhere from Karyuu, explaining how, sorry cant find it, but from what i remember you have to be nominated by a GM, so ask them. if you want to be one, big grin consider it asked.
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Ick, the thread just turned soppy with fake-girl-emotion :|
It would be nice if this thread became less "ZOMGWEHATETHEGMSTHEYSUCK" and more "details about Proglins next event please?"
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I thought the thread was essentially about why proglin was holding one last event then ending them, which was that essentially a (in my opinion) moronic change in GM policy keeps GM's from helping him with his event. So... They merged Gm's and RM's because of redundancy then changed the rules so that GM's couldn't help with events in the way they were before.... so the function of an RM was essentially eliminated....
So the point of hte thread became what are the duties of GM's currently, and what should they be I thought...
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Right, and we got the message after the first few posts about that. This has just become a 'take your shots at the GMs' thread.
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Well as far as that goes you're right. People here to simply take potshots at the GM's are guilty of hijacking the thread. The people who do this aren't seeing that the decision that caused it wasn't the decisison of the GM's but a decision made over their heads. I think though that the initial posts laid out the problem very well, then there were some potshots taken, then the love friendship of karyuu and verrliit, but that still leaves room for a good discussion on the solution or possible solutions to the problem. Given that any popular thread is going to have its share of spam, its still possible to continue on and have a viable discussion of alternatives, and not just ideas but true solutions and how to have them implemented. Simply because a thread is full of several spam posts does not mean that it can't still be a viable conduit to a solution to a problem.
That said, I'd like to know who made the decision that GM's can't help with these type of tournaments, because I would like to prepare a statment to them outlining some of the issues involved, my stance, and some possible solutions. Obviously it wasn't arbitrary so I'd also like to know the reason for the decision. This might make me reconsider my stance. I guess I'm just saying that at least I have some issues left unresolved here, and its possible to continue without everyone making a mockery of the discussion. I have confidence that hte players of planeshift can have a quality discussion. I've seen it many times.
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Talad made the decision. The reasons behind the decision was that we don't want to support player events which make up their own settings. To quote: "the game will become a playground for any story where everyone will invent the future of Yliakum claiming it happened in game, so it's true." if GMs supported player events. Although personally I and some other devs think that GMs should be able to help events like tournaments which don't change or invent new settings, and that is being discussed by us.
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Well. This has been a very interesting... and very long read. Several hours. Sorry I couldn't be in-game and read at the same time, but I thought this was more important. Where've I been? Not around as much as I should've been... that's the truth. There were three weeks where I should have been doing a bunch in-game, and I didn't do much. A lot of time was spent working on college applications, college visits, etc, but I still should have made more time for Planeshift. For this, I am sorry. However, other than those three weeks, I've been busy: I was in Japan for three weeks; I'm in upstate New York on vacation now and next week. I'm doing my best, but I can't be everywhere at once. When I get back I have two weeks before school starts. I WILL RUN AN EVENT THEN, EVEN IF I HAVE TO DO IT BY MYSELF. I swear it. Thats my promise to you, the Planeshift community. It won't be another rogues event; Akkaio won't be taken over... it may only involve four or five people, but it will happen. I also hope to run more events during the school-year, on the weekends especially.
Now, what I've taken from this thread: we need more GMs. Clearly, this is a big issue. We need more GMs, but they need to be carefully picked. I'm all for Proglin. And there are plenty of others who could do a good job... but we don't want to double the GM team in a week (this would be a bit chaotic). However, if we added 2 GMs every two weeks for the next couple months, I wouldn't be opposed; we just need to find the right people.
Also, we probably should publish some more information. Not the whole guide, then some players (the bad apples, not everyone!) will nitpick every action and scrutinize every single thing we do. But definitely a summary of some sort. As far as meeting minutes... perhaps a very brief summary, but again, players will argue over the decisions. We try to have a meeting every week... I don't want to be dealing with a bunch of argument threads every week. But major changes should definitely be passed on to players. Perhaps we can have a, "GM Policy Thread" that we update after major things happen in meetings.
Anyway, I'm very sorry that I haven't been around much and I'll do my best to remedy it. You will have an event (hopefully a bunch of events :) ) and I pledge to all of you that I'll do my best to serve you guys as a GM. I hope to see everyone in Planeshift soon!
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To Proglin: I would have been more sympathetic if you hadn't spoken about yourself in the third person, dropped so many names, and revised history. Several of your tournaments ended in ruin after you freaked out because someone disagreed with you over some minor decision or interpretation of the rules. And I definately think that your events promoted powerlevelling rather than roleplaying. Coming back from the dead because it was more convenient? How you only had a chance if your character was maxed out? Further, most of the matches were ended by a player glitching out the other player or exploiting the mechanics of hit and run attacks. I don't see how those things can be considered IC.
It doesn't mean that your events are bad, but they are what they are.
*looks at the door....looks at what the game is becoming.....looks at the door again....*
She was right. The downward spiral continues. In making the game, they are destroying the community.
Dude, stop being so elitist. You don't own the game. There is no downward spiral. You're just trying to glorify 'the old days' in an attempt to make yourself appear greater than you are.
I am sorry.
Then my comments were missaimed.
But if no one has heard my voice on these matters before...
it is because they have not been listening.
Or did not care to hear.
Or maybe people understand you 100% and still disagree with you?
Right, and we got the message after the first few posts about that. This has just become a 'take your shots at the GMs' thread.
Most of the comments I've read in this thread look like constructive critisism. They aren't all pot shots - many of them are valid concerns, even if many are based in ignorance and are solved with an explanation of what the real deal is.
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Luckely... you can always count on Zanzibar to make my day a tad worse :D Dear Zan... listen up. I freaked out on one of my tournaments, and only once. the reasons why, are personal and none of your business. Other tournaments, were won without glitching, you can ak the players that won, or lost. Also, I created something called a class-system, meaning that people of equal strength would fight one another. Minor, medium and master-class. Each one of them with their onw rewards and own fighters. Luckely, it's always the people that have no clue that critisize. You were invited once, but didn't accept. however, when you were asked to stay away, you came to screw things up. No worries Zanzibar.. be happy. This will be my last one. Just don't talk jibberish about things you know nothing about. Were you one of my referees and told me the tournaments were a bad idea and everything about them was wrong, I would have listened. Right now, I'm just getting a tad ticked off.
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Zanzibar, if you can make a better event, i think you have the right to critisize.
I think making proglin feel worse only makes us all feel bad.
I can't tell you how much patience goes into making this game fun, especially by the players, and these tournaments seem perfect, i also here about the ojafest, which also seems perfect.
I'd really like to see your 2 cents into the world of PS fun.
I'm not saying your bad or all, i'm saying, critisize after you've been through what you're critisizing about.
Untill then, you can't imagine the work that goes into it.
It's like someone looking at the Leaning Tower of Piza, and saying "What a complete failure".
I see the tower and say, "What a complete success, how beautiful it stands".
Understand what i mean Zanzibar?
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Proglin! You haven't answered anything about that nomination yet. Are you up for it, or at least can we get your thoughts on it?
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OH MY LORD
This game is becoming a world of warcraft clone as its being developed with all the censorship and rstrictions and pretty much making it as unrealistic as possible. I liek the idea of the tournement and now they are saying you cant do such a thing. Hell i tried to make a business with other role players in world of warcraft and it was a pain in the ass because they developed the game with so many restrictions.
What happned to the good old days when the amiga 500, atari, megadrive, super famicen(super nintendo) were around and game makers constantly strived to make the most complex and creative game around without any cencorship and rules and restriction and simplistic ideas.
I need to learn to becoem a programmer so i can make a game such as this without any restrictions and so realistic that people will shout that it is an abomination. But that will never happen so oh well i guess we keep being creative with such ideas as the tournement till they totally shut it down.
SHAME, SHAME, SHAME on those who are against it, im Darren Hinch and good night :) <---- a news reporter in australia used to always say that in teh end, god i love that phrase.
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I don't see how this game is becoming a World of Warcraft clone?
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I liek the idea of the tournement and now they are saying you cant do such a thing.
Nobody said that ever. Stop making up crap please.
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Please do all forum members a favor and read the entire thread before posting.
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16 pages is a lto to read on a crappy dial up modem. so i skimmed through, and he said what pretty much happned in WoW. he had an idea, it was a cool idea and everyone liked it, then someone decided to be political correct and moral and took action against him, then no one helped him which orginally they once did and it ended. same thing as WoW, some people complained and the devs and other members decided to not provide help an possibly implement things in the future but that i doubt. Dont really care though about what happned, i do a bit but not so much, i would be more pissed off if i was paying to play the game.
if it was 3 pages o rthe devs commenst where on the first page then believe me i woudl read it, but im not that patient, sorry abput that if what i said was incorrect, but thats the idea i got from what he said happned to him.
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And I definately think that your events promoted powerlevelling rather than roleplaying.
Powerleveling and Roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, I wish people would stop complaining about max stats it is unreasonable, the game mechanics allow for it, it will be done. I would argue that some characters MUST have max stats to be true to their character. There are also those who choose to play a handicap (a missing leg, blind, mute etc) or a child, or a ghost, and for that reason or other roleplaying reasons, they choose not to max their characters. Xillix for instance does not mine and does not craft metals, they are not things one raised to be an Octarch would do, but self defence, magic and history are things she would be trained for. Grow passed the issue, there are MANY MANY excellent roleplayers with max stats. You do not want to slog through thousands of npcs to get there, then don't, but dont make it an issue that someone else enjoys that aspect of the game. Is it ooc to spawn camp? Sure. The npcs will eventually move etc. Will it still be ooc to hunt them until you are as powerful as you want to be?
Proglin I hope you apply, and i even remember the setil and narita thing, me and maelgwynn probably won in part because of that.
If someone works as hard for an event as proglin does the thought of someone feeling that the host may have made an error can be very overwhelming in the moment. I think a degree of understanding is in order in this instance.
[I evoked zanzibar more because i thought he would pick at the sillier arguments in this thread . . . those are not Proglin's IMHO]
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Talad made the decision. The reasons behind the decision was that we don't want to support player events which make up their own settings. To quote: "the game will become a playground for any story where everyone will invent the future of Yliakum claiming it happened in game, so it's true." if GMs supported player events. Although personally I and some other devs think that GMs should be able to help events like tournaments which don't change or invent new settings, and that is being discussed by us.
Does this mean no settings ideas are welcome despite the obvious need of more to be wirtten in the current settings? A bit over-controlling IMHO when many good things can come from these events. I'm not talking about a "whatever happens in-game is to be considered reality" rule but something coherent to the current development point of the game: RP ideas are tried by players which can add up to the settings, while there will be mistakes, there will also be good things. Working with these can help, choosing those aspects of player organized events that are both missing from the settings and not in conflict with them, especially if the dev team is too busy with other more urgent things.
I have a great deal of respect when it comes to someone's creative process. There is a vision here to be fulfilled yet that same vision doesn't need to be carried out by only one person. Being able to pick from the good stuff that comes out of player events and edit it so it fits with such a vision does not exclude the original image in the mind of the creator nor does it have to change it.
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Talad has his own plans for PS that not even every dev member knows. Maybe when more of the world is solid, little things can be changed through player input and player events. Until then though, the majority of the world and its ways really does belong to Talad, and carried out through the Settings team. I don't see this as overcontrolling in a game this early in development. Let him continue building the base for it, and afterwards it can be tweaked.
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zanzibar if you strictly take the definition of powerlevelling in the newbie section *points him there again* you see powerlevelling means playing for the solely purpose of maxing your skills. I have not maxed many skills (azure, crystal brown way and mining) that's about it... i'm planning to raise the other magic ways too... just for the sake of seeing the effect, but they don't intefer with my character's IC skills and powers as game mechanics in no way can be used for this when uncomplete...
i don't know many who still plays and only powerlevels... most of who joined thoose tournaments were rp'ers... you mentioned setil and narita... thoose are some of the first rp'ers i met and they are by no means pl'ers... if you say this you call everyone at that tournament a pl'er which means... just to play "prooving a point" i will join his next one... just for the sake of being invited, join in silence in his last it would be nice to have everyone there.
by the way proglin, any news on when it's going to be?
/me finishes talking with a monotive voice
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Most of the comments I've read in this thread look like constructive critisism. They aren't all pot shots - many of them are valid concerns, even if many are based in ignorance and are solved with an explanation of what the real deal is.
I agree on that.
I also agree that it looks worse than it actually is - and no downwards spiral.
I also don't consider duels with the recent game mechanics good RP or RP at all, but if other people do, I won't stop them. They are fun for a lot of different people, thus I try to promote them.
With all those points I can agree on, there's also a few things I dislike.
First:
if it was 3 pages o rthe devs commenst where on the first page then believe me i woudl read it,
Please do so, as a couple of devs, even Vengeance, posted on the first sites.
As you do you will notice that we all, players, GMs and even devs would like to support such events.
Second:
Zanzibar, do I have to remind you on the occassion when I had to mute you?
This is what Proglin was referring to. Whether it was justified or not is irrelevant here.
As much as I hate to see the GM team taking the blame for everything that is bad, I don't like to see this thread turning into a personal flamewar.
Proglin and Zanzibar, you two are, whether you believe it or not, both reasonable people.
Use your brains for constructive stuff, not for bashing each other.
/me sighs and thinks he has too much faith in humanity..
People, PlaneShift is a project made by people for people! It is up to ALL of us to make it a place we like! EVERYONE can and must help in that!
Players become GMs, players become devs.
STOP that pointless seperation and pointing with the finger at "the other"!
We all are working on that project, if you like it or not. It would be a start to drop a bit of the pride, accept (constructive) critics, take a pause if one gets stressed, RELAX!
We GMs take the critics serious, we really want to change the situation, but it will take time.
But it is not only the GMs or badly implemented features that caused the situation;
Take a look at YOURSELF! What can YOU change? Take a look at Proglin who achieved so much WITHOUT being GM! There are many people without special powers who[ achieved a lot. Let the world live! - in other words: LET'S ROCK!
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Be carefull what you wish for Xillix ;)
Wow two pages of reading since my last post that takes some time allright. Glad to se the thread is moving away from the flames aswell.
I think the wishes from most of the community are clear. Some control on the GMs to make sure they do do their jobs. Think the reports are a good idea although weekly would be a bit much. Monthly seems like a good idea. Only 12 times a year should be doable and would also give people enough things to report so you don't get stuck on details. and after all you could have a bad week but a bad month will happen a whole lot less. Think this would best fit simply on the GMmeetings that go on. Would have the extra benefit of the GMs hearing what the rest does.
More GMs ofcourse *smiles* obvious and said already but that seems to be agreed on by anyone to be a good idea. Think the recruiting should be smoothed over. After all if it took Zorbels several months to be able to get that interview I think that one should look if perhaps it would be a good idea to have more people available to do such interviews so people hear faster if they are accepted as GMs.
Perhaps have a standard list of questions could be made for people who are interested so the GMs who don't know the person get to know more about the person. At the moment GMs need to decide only on their personal opinions and with timezones and such it will be hard to know most of the GM team so they have an impression of you.
More visibility of GMs. Hear that several events are being planned so hoping this will increase GM visibility aswell. This would definately improve interaction between players and GMs in a fun way and hopefully people will see the different side of roleplaying GMs ;)
To Proglin: Hope to see more events even if not tournaments. Loved your auctions atleast. Even the pure profit ones *smiles* Have a thought on being a GM ;)
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To clarify something on GM applications: there is no nominations necesssary. In fact, someone has to actively tell us they would like to apply. We can't kidnap them onto the team ourselves :P
So, with all these cries of "More GMs!" where are the applications? This is not something the current GM team can change without outside participation. Sure, there's no guarantee that every application will be accepted (and maybe not immediately - maybe you'll be surprised after a refusal in the beginning!) but there is no harm in trying if you are interested. This is something that you as players have a direct way to influence. Do it! :)
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Afraid I can only offer my own unworthy self and poke others who I think are worthy. ;)
But indeed if noone applies. BTW you did get that Janner offered himself as candidate aswell? *points a few posts up*
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Yep, Janner has sent his application and it is being looked at :} Thanks Janner!
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To clarify something on GM applications: there is no nominations necesssary. In fact, someone has to actively tell us they would like to apply. We can't kidnap them onto the team ourselves :P
So, with all these cries of "More GMs!" where are the applications? This is not something the current GM team can change without outside participation. Sure, there's no guarantee that every application will be accepted (and maybe not immediately - maybe you'll be surprised after a refusal in the beginning!) but there is no harm in trying if you are interested. This is something that you as players have a direct way to influence. Do it! :)
I would love to jump right in and say pick me, pick me; However, reality sets in. Perhaps in 9 months or so....
I encourage all worthy people to step up, and apply to the GM team.
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Does this mean no settings ideas are welcome despite the obvious need of more to be wirtten in the current settings?
A lot of the settings is written or in Talad's head, it's just not released to the public (yet). Players won't have any input on official game settings unless they become devs (or settings prospects at least).
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One can only hope Talad will be so kind to lift the vale a little now and then and give us a glimpse of what's to come.
Hope that at some point the players will decide how the story goes further with their decicions ingame. That would truely be the ideal place to roleplay. ;)
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I should have locked this thread a long time ago. Mirashi, you are way out of line. GMs, while I don't always agree with everything you do, I agree most of the time with most of what you do and I support your continued work and existence. Don't listen to Mirashi. GM's should be doing it because they enjoy, WHEN they enjoy it. This is a game. GMing is another way to play it, just like power-leveling or RPing. I agree with Janner and Proglin's nominations, if that counts for anything.
Xordan and Karyuu are officially saints in my book for continuing to tolerate this thread long after it became counterproductive and useless. I am not such a saint. Locked.
- Vengeance